Reds Insider: One small play, one big difference

Monday, March 31, 2008

One small play, one big difference

Javy Valentin thought the ball he hit in the third might be out. He broke out of the box slowly. The ball hit the base of the fence in right. He ended up with 330-foot single.

Could it have been a double?

"Maybe," Valentin said. "If I run right away, I got an opportunity."

"It's been addressed," Dusty Baker said.

"I apologized," Valentin said. "It's not going to happen again."

The play might not have been the difference in the Reds' 4-2 loss to the Diamondbacks on Opening Day, but it was something Baker won't tolerate. When Brandon Webb was pitching like he was Monday, the margin for error is extremely slim. Valentin's mistake was one glaring mistake that wasn't physical. Edwin Encarnacion's error led to a run. Aaron Harang didn't get a bunt down immediately after Valentin's long single. But those mistakes have nothing to do with effort.

104 Comments:

at 6:44 PM

Cheviot Sports Authority said...

Georgie and Chris of course, never even addressed the issue.

at 6:52 PM

JackBlueAsh said...

Reds will be fine ..I think..looks like Cordero is the real deal

They need to get Bruce in centerfield and Votto at first

Changes the chemistry of the team for the better

That dude in centerfield looks weak..dont even know where he came from

at 6:58 PM

Rob Dicken said...

Georgie and Chris of course, never even addressed the issue.

And rightfully so. It's not their job and quite sure that they don't have the freedom of voice like Marty does.

at 7:16 PM

Cheviot Sports Authority said...

Its not their job to point out that a player did not run hard out of the box? Where have I been all these years? I thought it was their job to describe the action.

ST CSA

at 7:18 PM

Anonymous said...

it was one of the worst plays I have ever seen. Not running out of the box should have gotten him the bench, if you look at teams who consistently make the playoffs, rarely do those types of plays occur. I hope Dusty sticks to his word and doesn't tolerate it. Horrible baseball play, but watching Valentine over the years its what I have come to expect

at 7:20 PM

Anonymous said...

also the dude in center is corey patterson, who isn't all that bad as a defender, if you saw the diving play he made today. He is a decent stop gap until Bruce is up, my guess is he won't be there all year , bruce will come give it time

at 7:27 PM

Cheviot Sports Authority said...

I watched the game on tv. Therefore I did not get to listen to the professional broadcasters. Was there mention of Valentin's effort on the radio?

at 7:32 PM

REddlegg in Colorado said...

or Maybe Wally & Beaver don't have the____ to call players out,like JB,TB,or MB does.

I agree with Jack,with exception of his defense Corey Patterson looked horrible at the plate.He doesn't deserve to start.Pierre in LA is on the trade market.(.296 avg 200 hits,60 SB's)Sounds like the reds need to make a deal.Shore up that CF position with Pierre.He brings good defense, speed,a lead off guy who gets on base, a great work ethic, and someone who has produced,not a pretender.

CF & Catcher are still suspect.Votto needs some AB's for sure.Hatty will produce to certain degree,but gotta give Votto a chance to prove what he can do too.

Harang really beat himself on those two back to back homers.Bats were asleep all game & The defense looked shoddy.(EE & Javy basically gave them the 1st run on both the error to 1st & the passed ball)

at 7:39 PM

Rob Dicken said...

CSA, it is their job to describe the action but not criticize the players on public television.

There's a reason Marty has that freedom. It's called 30+ years of broadcasting experience. And even so, he doesn't say that a specific person is terrible or should be punished.

at 7:42 PM

anti-media said...

This is why Georgie & Chris are considered the worst TV team in
baseball!! How Dusty reacts (fines) J.V. will tell us if our culture of losing will change. You can be sure W.K. didn't see it !!(remember last year) WAKE UP CINCY FIRE KRIVSKY

at 7:44 PM

ST fan said...

Brantly on the radio was very clear that Harang's "wild pitch" was one that any decent catcher would have stopped. Sorry Valentin is the goat but it's the little things that win games. Maybe the other players noticed and will tighten up.

at 7:46 PM

Joe said...

If Patterson is the type hitter he displayed today, Punch and Judy without much Punch, Bruce will be up before the end of the month or as soon as he has 50 ABs in L-ville and is ripping the cover off the ball. Focus should be on a catcher. With a ball between the wickets today and not running out of the box on a fair ball, Javier will be focusing on pinch hitting soon. Gotta remember they faced arguably the best pitcher in the NL today.

at 7:51 PM

Pat said...

I watched the AZ feed. Mark Grace and Daron Sutton were all over Valentine's single. They even checked to see if he was running on his late game fly out. He was.

Let's not judge Patterson on one game.

at 7:51 PM

smtides said...

I'm not the biggest Patterson fan in the world, but I have to laugh at these comments.

How, pray tell, did Patterson look any worse against Webb than, say, Keppinger? Griffey? Dunn? Phillips? Hatteburg?

Some of yall just have your mind made up on Patterson and seem to be rooting for his failure.

I'm actually pulling for the guy. I think he improves the organizational depth at a position that the Reds aren't terribly deep at.

And if he builds off of his 2007 2nd half, the Reds have themselves a bargain. And if he doesn't, he's still a very good 4th outfielder.

at 7:54 PM

REddlegg in Colorado said...

I agree with Fay,161 more to go.April really is like a extended ST. Teams are still trying to plug holes,make deals,make room for players coming up from the farm,cut players & wait for players to get off the DL.It's like a tryout for positions still.EE better do something quick!Kepp didn't do to much either to help his cause.

I don't expect Patterson in CF much longer.The whole LH & RH platoon gets on my nerves too.Just put the right guy in & let him play.

Webb is tough & usually hands the reds a Loss anyways.Chalk it up,move on, & get ready for a win on Weds.

at 7:59 PM

nklpkl said...

Let's see...an unearned run on a throwing error, a "wild pitch" that wasn't that wild, and a home run given up by the relief corp.

I sure drank the Kool Aid for the last 5 weeks. This is the same 'ole, same 'ole folks, and Casey friggin Stengal could come out of the grave and it ain't gonna help.

at 8:00 PM

Rob Dicken said...

I still say that the game was lost because we had 3 hits, 2 runs, and 10 strikeouts. Valentin's passed ball and EE's error were minor in comparison.

at 8:03 PM

Anonymous said...

John, Any word on a new catcher? Are the still looking hard

at 8:06 PM

redfuture said...

The Cubs/Brewers game was more symptomatic of glaring deficiency than the Reds game. Kerry Wood gave up 3 in the 9th of a tied game, then Gagne gave up 3 in the bottom of the ninth to blow it! Hehehehe!

at 8:17 PM

docproc said...

EE's error was more significant than Valentin's double becoming a single.

at 8:19 PM

BATSFAN said...

Hey John, can you put a blog up when the Louisivlle Bats final roster comes out? thank you

at 8:22 PM

NVreds said...

patterson has the most pressure on him as far as the fans are concerned.

We need to realize we've played 1/162 of the games. Thats .6% of the season

He is better defensively than any other option we got, and in a hitter friendly park, thats pretty useful. SS is supposed to produce outs, but CF (the other important up the middle defense) gets outs AND takes away extra base hits. a SS doesnt get a ball=single, CF doesnt get to a ball=double/triple/IPHR. what happened when phillips lined one to young? RBI triple. at least he can still help the team on the days he doesnt get a hit.

please can we let bruce go, there is zero gaurantee he would hit at this level. plus him in the leadoff spot would have given webb 3 more strikeouts. Hes not ready, let it go, he will be here this year.

at 8:26 PM

JackBlueAsh said...

Pattersons an ok 4th outfielder..nothing more

at 8:44 PM

Joe said...

In my opinion Patterson has two issues against him: first, he has not been a good hitting player at the big league level in the past and that does not appear to have changed, second, he is playing in the position the highest rated minor leaguer in all of baseball is in line for. Talk about some pressure! Granted the guy may be a great defensive player, although he had a couple today that appeared to fool him. It is like the Cowboy said today, when an organization has the highest rated minor league prospect in all of basealldom at the end of 2007, he needs to play with the big team in 2008. Bruce should be a Reds uniform and in center field.

at 8:46 PM

Matt said...

Corey Patterson played very good defense today. Jay Bruce is a 20 yr old kid that has NEVER PLAYED IN A MAJOR LEAGUE GAME!!! Wake up people you all are out of your minds, just like with Votto he hit below the mendoza line in spring ball and hatteberg is our best hitter yea smart to bench him. Good lord people 0-1 and we all panic grow some brains and become baseball savy. And on a side note george and chris are a disgrace they should not be allowed to announce reds games. All George does is kiss the other team's ass.

at 8:47 PM

jdeezman said...

smtides... why would you want to ruin a perfectly good whine/moan/cry session by pointing out the obvious facts?

For Gods sake, don't you know that the Reds stink?
We've already lost the season, so we should be hoping that they all crash and burn!

These guys are hilarious, and the richest thing is how serious they take themselves and think soooo highly of their "expert opinion".

What a joke... 1 game into a 162 game season and the buzzards are already circling.

Let's just cut the entire team and bring up the Bat's AAA team, we couldn't do worst!

at 9:24 PM

MJ said...

Anyone who suggests that Valentin be bench for not running hard on that long single should first check the depth behind Javy before they stick their foot in their mouth. Until Ross gets back he's the best we have. His strength is his pinch hitting not his defense. I still think we make a deal. Saltimatica or Clement should be dealt for.

at 9:34 PM

Todd McElmurray said...

For all the "chicken littles" out there . . . CHILL! It's the first game of the season and yet the blog has already started to take a doom and gloom turn. At least give the boys until mid-April.

at 9:50 PM

redsfanwoody said...

You got to give Patterson credit on two good defensive plays,one diving and running another one down in deep CF.

Take away Harang's rough 3rd inning and who knows? Maybe a win. And credit Webb causing the Reds to produce some fugly swings today.

at 10:03 PM

MJ said...

A place for Cincinnati Reds fans to gather and discuss baseball's first professional team and anything going on in the baseball world. The regular season is here with new Skipper Dusty Baker on board. With a new look pitching staff poised to have a pretty good year exciting things are on the horizen.
RedsFest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

at 10:05 PM

firefly118 said...

I am sure this won't get posted, because it is a little negative, but here goes.

I don't know who is worse, John, for posting this, or half of you who comment on it.

Are you kidding me? Javy was the best player on the field today. All his at bats were very good, and he hit the ball. Just because he thought he had a homer, but it was just a single, you all b...h about it. Did you all see how everyone was trying to hit it out of the park, instead of shortening their swing for singles? Dusty addressed it, WHAT? Did Dusty address his horrible coaching? 2 times we had lead off people on and nobody got to 2nd base. No bunting over, no hit and run, just guys trying to be Ted Williams. Horrible, just horrible, THAT COULD HAVE CHANGED THE OUTCOME. Instead, we point out that Javy didn't run, no wonder this franchise is where it is, and why the fans keep buying tickets

at 10:05 PM

MJ said...

I sure hope they're sucessful at acquiring a catcher. Javy's strength is his pinch hitting coming off the bench and spot starting. He's not going to cut it as our everyday starter for long. Ross has good defense but lacks the punch at the plate. I'm hoping we acquire someone who can hit occasionally but still play solid defense.

at 10:05 PM

bearcat1984 said...

Rob nailed it. Yeah, there was an error, and yeah Burton gave up a homer (of course he also struck out two); but what killed us was being totally controlled by a Cy Young-level pitcher.

It's way too early to make pronouncements about this team. Let's see how the rest of the games go vs the d-backs and as we work our way a couple of times through the rotation.

10 to 15 games (approx 10%) should give us a much better idea of what's working and what's not working. One loss against a team that went 90-72 last year (vs their #1 pitcher) is hardly by itself an indicator of imminent Reds failure.

at 10:09 PM

Tommy in Tucson said...

Same old Reds. Swing from you a$$, don't hustle out what's thought to be a home run, strike out a lot and of course make an error that leads to a run. This team may lead the league in Ks, not the pitching staff, the home run gods. Dusty likes the three run dinger and we'll lose plenty of 7 - 6 games. Eight in a row and out of the race by June, again. Well next year Junior and Donkey Kong Jr. (Dunn) will be gone. Maybe someone will wake up and decide to play baseball instead of home run derby. Gonna be another long year at the old ball park.

at 10:12 PM

Bengal43 said...

To me a trade of Freel to Atlanta for catcher Bryan Pena plus a minor leaguer sure makes alot of sense. The Braves 2B had a day-to-day injury tonight. Freel could really help Atlanta and Pena would help the Reds.

at 10:15 PM

Dutch in Richmond, IN said...

I must agree with smtides. I personally am tired of seven losing seasons as much as any fan, but I am not going to sell Patterson short after one day at the plate against the best pitcher in the National League. I was impressed with his defense which can help with Dunn's lack of defense....but as I have said before, I will be excited to see Bruce roaming the outfield in GABP.

at 10:26 PM

MJ said...

It will be interesting to see where the Reds have the Bats play Bruce while he's with them. I think there is something to the speculation that he may be groomed as a replacement for life after Griffey.

at 10:28 PM

MJ said...

I agree. I certainly hope that at some point in the very near future the Reds give strong consideration to making Thom and the Cowboy our everyday announcers and do away with Chris Welsh but I like Blanda though.

at 10:39 PM

MJ said...

If I remember what I read correctly the Reds were one of 3 teams to acquire on him from the Braves but were turned away.

at 10:41 PM

MJ said...

Gonzo (Defense)
Keppinger (Offense)
Patterson (Defense)
Bruce/Hopper (Offense)

Merge them and you have what you require.

at 10:43 PM

cincikid said...

It was posted in mlbtraderumors.com that the Reds and a couple others recently tried to pry the Pena from the Braves. The Braves aren't willing to trade him right now. The demand for prospect catchers are through the roof right now. As we seen in last June's Draft. The Braves are probably going to hold onto him until the deadline and ask for a fool ransom. That's why the Braves always have talent. They don't give it away for 30+ year old utility players that are injury prone.

at 10:43 PM

LittleRedMachine said...

Wow, some (not all) Reds fans are really nothing more than whiny washwomen. Patterson is no stud, but he is fine for now. They lost to Brandon Webb. I hear Webb is pretty good. Horrible weather and a few mistakes cost the Reds today but they certainly werent overmatched against a very good D-backs team. Perspective people. Its just one game. Lets not bench Dunn and Griffey or send Edwin to the minors just yet.

at 11:01 PM

KevinFtMyers said...

The team was just flat out NOT READY TO PLAY. I dont know if it was the rain delay or what.

What I can say is theres one guy in that clubhouse whos job is to have them ready to play.

He didnt.

Having said that, Webb pitched really well, Harang gave up 2 dingers.

Keppinger and Patterson were stellar on defense, on offense... I did as much.

Noone else is worth mentioning.

I saw ALOT today, but any of you that think you saw enough to draw ANY conclusions about this season are just looney.

Any of you know why they play so many games?

(todays game is a hint)

Relax, were tied for 2nd place.

at 11:38 PM

mentalmidget said...

My goodness!! 1 game and the whiners come out of the woodwork! What is going to happen if our beloved Reds hit a 2 or 3 game losing streak???? I've never seen so many people complain after the first game of 162!!! Now if things go on through April like they did today, I'll join right in with you May 1. Wow!! Too many people hitting the panic button already!!!!!!

at 11:50 PM

KevinFtMyers said...

Grooming Bruce for life after Griffey?

So let Griffey go and keep Patterson in center? Thats NOT an upgrade.

And dont tell me about salaries, this is big boy pro sports,

PICK TWO:

Good
Cheap
Longevity

If youre good, for long, it aint cheap

If youre good and cheap, it wont be for long

And we all know how long you can be cheap and not be good.

Dunn / Bruce / Griffey is the best outfield the Reds can get. (And potentially the best outfield in NL)

Check this link:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/playerrankings/regularseason/CF

Patterson ranks 22
Hopper 30

The Reds wont sign any of the guys in the top 15, so play Bruce.

Also while there, select right field.

Griffey is 10

The Reds wont sign any of the guys ranked higher.

Sign Griffey for league average with his service time. Hes got 2 years left, maybe 3.

Jack, we all know what you think, so dont bother.

By the way, Dunn is 3rd of all Left fielders.

So..

Dunn 3rd / Bruce top 10? / Griffey 10

(Best outfield in NL)

at 11:55 PM

reaganspad said...

Positives, Aaron was very good. He appeared to be struggling w/o Ross calling the game.
Dunn gets the run in from 3rd with less than 2 outs.
During the big inning, the team was really working the walks. Go back and watch the film of that boys.

Need our starters, Ross and AGon back as soon as possible. lots of flack in here about Patterson, but Kepp also is at .000, left 2 men on base and had a GIDP. I think AGon gets the grounder that scored the unearned run

Their SS, Drew hit 239 last year, but he is a SS

at 12:27 AM

Anonymous said...

here's an interesting link... not sure if it echoes the sentiments of this board though.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjwdRuFEoA2n.Cl0OPxR4zaFCLcF?slug=ys-mlbpredicts032508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

specifically, check out the first GM fired vote.

at 2:17 AM

REddlegg in Colorado said...

That's interesting muskee27.With Jochetty sitting on the side of BC,WK is going to have make some real smart moves & hope this team wins.The pressure is on.I don't care what anyone say's,Jocketty is waiting in the wings to be the next GM.WK better hope for a great season,but that still doesn't guarantee his job for next season.

I like where the reds are heading,BC wants to win & his emotion's showed that in the Broadcast booth with Wally & Beaver today.

at 3:46 AM

Another losing season said...

at 6:23 AM

Al in Ohio said...

at 6:57 AM

KevinFtMyers said...

losing season,

Krivsky didnt replace Hamilton with Patterson. Jay Bruce is the replacement.

Bruce will be in Louisville for six weeks which will push back arbitration a full year.

As good as Hamilton is, he cant pitch, Volquez can.

So after 1 game, you can know all of what you said?

Hamilton played 1 game too.
1 for 4, 0 runs, 0 rbi, 0hr

Average to be kind. Dont you think?

at 7:17 AM

longball said...

Some TV coverage critique.

George and Chris had as bad a day as Valentin. They promised during the rain delay that we would see the "entire pre-game cerimony and tributes".

We did see the player introductions which was rather moving with all the Nuxhall shirts, however, when the video honoring Purkey, Howsam etc...came on,they were in commercial break, returned to jabber some more, they finally went back on the field to catch the final seconds with Kim Nuxhall. We never saw any pics of the Purkey, Bender, or Howsam families. When the choir sang "Amazing Grace" George turned around from the camera and looked onto the field while Chris was rambling.
They had an hour rain delay to jabber among themselves and get all the commericials in, they could have devoted 15 minutes to the pre-game cerimony. It was Opening day for god sakes.

Side note: Channel 5 should never let Shari and Sandra on the air without a telepropter.They have no ad-lib skills. Channel 12 should not let Tara Pacmayer on the air, ever.

at 8:20 AM

JackBlueAsh said...

i get blasted all winter long for being realistic about this team ...they lose one game and now you all are ripping the team apart..too funny

you all need to relax ..its only one game.. this team will improve by at least ten games this year

Frankly, I dont see any reason why not to play Jay Bruce in centerfield...this Patterson is real weak

I would imagine Votto will become our starting first baseman as time progresses

It does look like we have a real closer in Cordero

at 8:30 AM

Brendan T said...

First game of the season and the Reds lose to a CY YOUNG WINNER and everyone thinks the season is over. Unbelievable!

As for the Juan Pierre post? He makes $ 8.8 mil a year. Hardly worth the money and not that great of a leadoff hitter regardless.

at 8:47 AM

Dutch in Richmond, IN said...

Let's talk about the positives yesterday. Immediately you can see the bull pen should be better this year. I now have the confidence that we should get more wins when the starting pitchers give us quality starts. BUT lets talk about the biggest ground out in Reds History. Before it is all said and done, Adam Dunn may be the best power hitter to ever wear a Reds uniform. Back to Back to Back 40 homerun seasons but I have never been so excited to watch him ground out to second as I was yesterday. If he approaches the plate like that the rest of the season, he could be a MVP candidate.

at 9:10 AM

Rob Dicken said...

Get used to this. Yeah it's only one game but it is the future for this year. Hamilton is sorely missed. Hamilton will make a run at the AL MVP meanwhile Krivsky replaced him with a guy who was sitting on his couch. Nice pick up. Harang did exactly what this pitiching staff cannot do. Mental lapses lead to long balls in that park. All the talk about how the player's are going to respect Baker and hustle...give me a break. Same old Reds. They may win more games than last year but do not fool yourselves. This team goes 78 and 84.

I am not sure what game you were watching yesterday, but I saw Aaron Harang give up 2 earned runs in 6 innings of work. He shut down a decent Arizona offense.

If you haven't been to GABP, then I guess you wouldn't know that it is a homerun ballpark. So (as crazy as this sounds) home runs WILL BE HIT!

Besides only getting 3 hits and striking out 10 times, I thought we played good baseball. We were playing small-ball, which when playing against Brandon Webb (and last time I checked, he's a 2 time Cy Young Winner) is what we need to do.

No need to crack on Adam Dunn's hitting or striking out today. He grounded out to first driving in one of our only runs. When's the last time we saw Dunn doing something like that?

And it's absolutely maddening to see people say that losing both Griffey and Dunn next year will help this team. 200 RBIs missing from the lineup will not help!

at 9:31 AM

Jay O'Brien said...

Wow! One game and we're already wanting to fire Baker, Valentine, Patterson, and EE. Heck, we even want to axe George and Chris. Come on fellow Reds fans! Is the city of Cincinnati really filled with this much sports ignorance?
No wonder some of our players (Griffey) want to play else where. They're stuck in a city with fans jumping off the wagon after game one.

at 9:31 AM

Jay O'Brien said...

at 9:45 AM

Mr. Doom and Gloom said...

btw...the great josh hamilton went 1/4 with a K and 3 lob yesterday, and the rangers somehow managed to score only 2 runs and lose even with the next mantle on the roster...don't fret, just a slow start to his dazzling mvp campaign i'm sure

at 9:46 AM

Anonymous said...

Wow! Hamilton makes a run at MVP! What a joke. The guy may turn out to be a fine player but he will never win an AL MVP. He'll be lucky if he's still in the league 5years from now. He has a checkered past, he's injury prone, and he was unpopular in this clubhouse. I say good riddance.

at 9:54 AM

firefly118 said...

EXCUSES! I am as big a Reds fan as anybody, seriously I am. But, I am also a realist, and think that calling a spade a spade is the way you fix things.

What is this talk of BRANDON WEBB? Is he Kofax, Gibson, or even Cy Young himself? Granted, he is a really good pitcher, but he isn't the best in baseball, heck, he isn't even a top 5 NL pitcher. Even if he was, we are a professional team too (supposed to be), and should be able to at least make contact. As far as Webb, you all better do your research, put Harrang's # against Webb over the last 3 seasons....WHO IS THE BETTER PITCHER? I don't care what the awards say (its like Phillips not getting the gold glove at 2nd), it doesn't make sense.

Sorry, all this rambling, what it all means is this! Webb is good, but we will see pitchers like him all year long, and if excuses is all we have as why we don't hit or win, then its 72-90 AGAIN.

PATTERSON, defense was good, but have you seen Bruce play???? We won't lose a step there! HATTEBERG, have you seen Votto play???? Won't lose a step there!

Bedard's line: 5IP with 2ER and a win! (And that isn't a jab at Harrang)

at 10:02 AM

Rob Dicken said...

"The Cubs/Brewers game was more symptomatic of glaring deficiency than the Reds game. Kerry Wood gave up 3 in the 9th of a tied game, then Gagne gave up 3 in the bottom of the ninth to blow it! Hehehehe!"

So, redfuture, let me see if I have this straight: Even though the Brewers won (on the road, against a team many consider a World Series contender), and the Reds lost (at home), the Reds are actually in a better position than the Brewers? Eric Gagne' blowing a save is "symptomatic", but Harang giving up two HRs in one inning (and failing to get down a sac bunt at an important time), is apparently "asymptomatic".

I love fans. I really do. My prediction: By June 1, the "we still have plenty of time to catch the Brewers and Cubs" posts will be a daily occurence on this blog.

Aaron Harang gave up two solo home runs and that's the only earned runs he gave up the entire game. Seems pretty similar to me to about how Brandon Webb was shutting down the Reds. It was a pitcher's battle, and Brandon Webb won because the Reds couldn't get the job done hitting.

Harang is the last person you need to criticize here. The guy has had two stellar seasons in a row.

There are 161 games left in the season. The Reds have just as good of a chance as the Brewers. And sure...you can bring technicalities into it and say that the Brewers have won 1 game and the Reds have lost 1 game. Then I would just tell you to quit being a simpleton and be a fan! Have hope for your team and root them on. Don't try to bring the rest of the city down because you're a fairweather fan!

at 10:07 AM

MJ said...

If I remember correctly we drafted a pretty good catcher ourselves but I'd say he's probably 2-3 years at best away from even coming close to breaking into the big club.

at 10:08 AM

John Fay said...

Webb finished second in the cy young voting last year. He won it in 2006. I'm no math expert but I think that puts him in the top 5 in the NL.

Again, perspective. The Reds looked horrible on Opening Day in '06 and won 80 games. They looked great on OD last year and won 70.

at 10:11 AM

Rob Dicken said...

What is this talk of BRANDON WEBB? Is he Kofax, Gibson, or even Cy Young himself? Granted, he is a really good pitcher, but he isn't the best in baseball, heck, he isn't even a top 5 NL pitcher. Even if he was, we are a professional team too (supposed to be), and should be able to at least make contact. As far as Webb, you all better do your research, put Harrang's # against Webb over the last 3 seasons....WHO IS THE BETTER PITCHER? I don't care what the awards say (its like Phillips not getting the gold glove at 2nd), it doesn't make sense.

I agree with you that we should have hit Brandon Webb better, but Brandon Webb IS a top 5 NL pitcher! Who would you rank as higher than Brandon Webb? Aaron Harang? Jake Peavy? Those are the only two in my book!

I agree that Harang has had better years recently than Webb. No doubt about that. But, you can't take away the fact that Webb has the best sinker in the MLB and is an extremely tough pitcher to hit. I am not making excuses for this team, but we lost because we didn't hit. And the majority of the reason we didn't hit is because we faced Brandon Webb.

You can blame it on preparation, Dusty Baker, EE, Javy's passed ball or 330 ft. single...but the fact of the matter is that we faced a tough pitcher and just didn't hit. There's no beating around the bush with it.

at 10:16 AM

MJ said...

I guess the Reds could always pick up the option year for Junior next year but however I think they will decline it and either try to sign him at a cheaper price or allow him to go elsewhere. My guess is he'll return to Seattle to live out his days as a pro then retire. Either way we stand to lose both Dunn and Junior but I'd say most likely they'll keep Dunn but lose Junior.

at 10:21 AM

Red Faced said...

I was at the game yesterday and here's my input. First off, look at the numbers for Harang vs Webb. They are almost exactly the same. 6IP, 2 ER, 6 SO, 3 hits, Harang walked 2 and Webb walked 4 so on the surface you'd say Harang had the better day.

EE's error was bad. It not only led to their first run but caused Harang to throw another 10-12 pitches that inning. Without it the Reds save a run, and Harang likely comes out to pitch the 7th inning which would also eliminate the Burton HR. I know this is all what if's and Buts, but it is realistic. Not to put all the blame on EE though. The sad fact is that if the bats on this team are not hitting then we need a perfectly played game in order to win. We didn't get that yesterday. Harang's effort, despite the 2 HR's was good enough for this team to scratch out a win and I was disappointed with the effort from our lineup.

It seems like we are still stuck in the rut that if the top two guys in the lineup do not hit the ball then we are in for a long day at the plate.

I was surprised to see Hopper pinch hit instead of the lefthanded Votto and was even more surprised when he didn't attempt to get on with the bunt. I realize he usually does this against left handers but at that time we were desperate for baserunners. Just my 2 cents on the pinch-hit selection.

I thought Patterson played excellent defense. The diving catch and he got excellent jumps on two balls hit deep to center and was able to track them down. I don't know that Hopper, Freel, or even Bruce would not have made those same plays though so I can't say for sure that Patterson made a difference in the field.

It doesn't get any easier on Wednesday, guys better be hitting the ball or we are in for another long day.

I'll give Javy a pass the first time for not hustling out of the box, for one thing he was one of the only guys to hit the ball hard for us all day long.

at 10:31 AM

Mr. Doom and Gloom said...

i figured al in ohio would come slinking around after the beating the brewers 10 million dollar man took yesterday. at least it was only a 1 year deal al...

based upon his track record, i would consider harang giving up 2 solo shots, going 6 with 2 ER pretty typical of what he'll do this year. dude gives up his share of long balls, but more often than not, they're solo shots and he's gonna give you a solid start 9/10 times even without his best stuff.

based on gagne's track record since the injuries and since he's off the juice, i would certainly not consider his performance a surprise either.

kbnow what would suprise me? if the reds are within 5 games of the brew crew or cubs at the end of june.

at 10:35 AM

Steven Ross said...

One game and 90% of you are already complaining. The line-up and pitching staff you saw yesterday probably will look much different in June.

Patterson is fine! Give it a rest and reserve judgement for at least a month or two. Now I do have a few issues: Encarnation's throwing error could not have happened at a worse time. Wet ball or not, he has to make that play. It set a negative tone.

Javier is not the regular starting catcher for two obvious reasons yesterday: passed ball and not running on the 330 foot single. The latter will not happen again.

at 10:47 AM

Another losing season said...

I am not sure what game you were watching yesterday, but I saw Aaron Harang give up 2 earned runs in 6 innings of work. He shut down a decent Arizona offense.

If you haven't been to GABP, then I guess you wouldn't know that it is a homerun ballpark. So (as crazy as this sounds) home runs WILL BE HIT!

Besides only getting 3 hits and striking out 10 times, I thought we played good baseball. We were playing small-ball, which when playing against Brandon Webb (and last time I checked, he's a 2 time Cy Young Winner) is what we need to do.

I was watching the same game as you were. Harang had two lapses and you can't have those when you're going against one of the best pithcer's in baseball. Proof...look how terrible most of the Red's looked at the plate against Webb.

I've been to GAB plenty of times and you make my point for me. Only problem is where were the Red's home runs against Webb? Get it now?

at 11:18 AM

Zach in MO said...

I love Harang & thought we stole him from the A's for Guillen a couple of years ago but if you were a GM & you could pick any starting NL pitcher would Harang be in your top 5? I'm not trying to dog out Harang, I really want to know. I put together this list. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I am curious as to what everyone else thinks.

Santana, Hamels, Oswalt & Peavy are all pitchers that are better than Harang. Although I could see Hamels being bumped based on the fact that he's only done it for a year & a half. I think stats-wise you could make a case based on the last 3 years (Hamels 1 1/2)

However, I think Harang is better than Sheets, Hudson, Zambrano, Webb, Francis, Carpenter, Zito. All of who get more pub. than Harang.

I think the jury is still out on Haren. He was good it Oakland but so was Zito. I guess we'll find out tomorrow!

at 11:28 AM

Anonymous said...

Last time I checked he was a 1 time Cy Young winner.

at 11:44 AM

Cheviot Sports Authority said...

The lack of hustle has been a trademark of this team for the past 7 losing seasons. This is the kind of crap that I have come to expect from Griffey(hopefully Baker can wield some influence there, that's one of the reasons he was brought in).

If I hadn't seen it for myself, I don't think that I would have believed it. Not on the first day of the new regime in a close ballgame by a marginal player. I actually like Javy Valentin and I hope that he has learned from this. But after all the preaching, all spring you have to wonder. Good thing for him that Reds catching is so bad and they need him. Lets hope that is the end of it for awhile.

Not particularly thrilled with Patterson either, but might as well give him a chance. If he flops, its on Baker. We need to give him a chance too. At least this season, there appears to be a chance. Last season was over in April.

One thing for sure: Mr Happy, George Grande has got to go. Please! Does he get paid by the word?

Even Chris Welch is tolerable when Grande is not with him. Not to even mention Valentin's effort yesterday is inexcusable, even for those two homers.

at 11:46 AM

tom dunne said...

"Only problem is where were the Red's home runs against Webb? Get it now?"

Webb has better than a 3-to-1 ground ball ratio. He gave up just 12 homers all last year. Were you seriously expecting the Reds to hit multiple homers against him?

at 11:50 AM

Cheviot Sports Authority said...

Arizona offense: NOT decent.
Arizona offense: SUCK!

at 12:10 PM

Rob Dicken said...

I was watching the same game as you were. Harang had two lapses and you can't have those when you're going against one of the best pithcer's in baseball. Proof...look how terrible most of the Red's looked at the plate against Webb.

I've been to GAB plenty of times and you make my point for me. Only problem is where were the Red's home runs against Webb? Get it now?

Right, and from what I could see he had basically the same numbers as Brandon Webb and fewer walks. Arizona looked just as terrible at the plate against Harang as the Reds did against Webb. How is that even debatable?

I'm sorry, but the homers were solo shots and on paper Harang had a better game than Webb. Offense and defense blew the game for him. I am not even sure this is worth arguing about. Harang doesn't deserve any criticism at all. He pitched a good game.

at 12:10 PM

Kurt said...

It's only one game and remember the reds will lose 60 games this year and win 60 games this year just like everyone else. It's what the reds do with the other 42 games that will determine their season. Granted you want to start out the season with a win, but against Webb you better not make errors and they did. Tomorrows game will be a tough one also against Haran, better run out balls and play good defense.

at 12:13 PM

Rob Dicken said...

Last time I checked he was a 1 time Cy Young winner.

You're right. He nearly won last year against Jake Peavy. Still doesn't change the fact that he's one of the top 5 pitchers in the NL.

Arizona offense: NOT decent.
Arizona offense: SUCK!

Go enough to win the NL West and get them to the playoffs!

They had really good pitching last year, but they still had to hit to win games.

at 12:30 PM

reaganspad said...

If Aaron Harrang pitches like that all season, he is the 20 game winner that we all are looking for.
Reddlegg in Colo, the pressure is always on the GM, and the manager. Few "retire" in the job.

Get healthy, add in a few from AAA, and I'll take that effort all year long as it translates to about 88 wins.

Eliminate those little things and we are amoung the 90 win teams

at 12:38 PM

Anonymous said...

it's simple
Krivsky should trade Griffey for Brandon Webb then we bring up Bruce to play right field
voila' all better
now was that so hard?

at 1:08 PM

REddlegg in Colorado said...

I agree with the saint,

The D-backs offense is not good.Byrnes lead the team in RBI's at 83 last season.Not saying Harang did'n't do his job;He pitched well.The Offense for the Reds was pretty bad & the defense was shoddy.Not being negative,I'm not throwing in the towel, & I'm not fairweather.But I'm not blind either!!!!They did'nt play well,bottomline.

The reason I'm harping on CP, is watch is AB's.He is very impatient in the box.Hopper on base & CP swings at the 1st pitch to fly out to CF.That pissed me off.Plus, he had a walk in the bag early in the game & swung at a bad pitch that grounded out.He could have been on base,instead.There's a reason he was at home while other team's passed on him.Stat's can be decieving,but they can tell you alot too.CP stats are not stellar.Things change,maybe a fresh start can do that,but from what I saw yesterday.I was not impressed!!!

Pierre might make 8.8 mil,but if the brass really want's to win,they will find a way to get this guy.200 hits,.396 avg., & 60 SB's.A great work ethic & a WS ring.Agon & Pierre would be reunited & would strengthen the middle part of the field.(430 games or so without ever missing a start,till yesterday & he's not injured,it sounds like locker room politics)

It's one game,chalk it up, & get the win on weds.

at 1:25 PM

Anonymous said...

I see a lot of noise made about Javy not running out of the box for a 330 foot single. What about Scott Hatteberg. He struck out in the 8th (I think) inning and started walking back to the dugout. The DBack's catcher mishandled the ball. Aren't you supposed to run those out? I'm sorry. I don't care how much Dusty Baker likes you, he has to treat the lack of hustle the same for everyone.

at 1:36 PM

Dutch in Richmond, IN said...

it's simple
Krivsky should trade Griffey for Brandon Webb then we bring up Bruce to play right field
voila' all better
now was that so hard?

I am sure you were joking but for those who thought you weren't, Griffey's value isn't the greatest. There aren't a lot of GM's who are looking for late 30's outfielders with a history on injuries that make $13 million. Griffey can still produce and we need to face the fact he will be a Red until at least the All-Star break when a team doesn't have to eat the whole salary. He can still help this ball club.

at 1:44 PM

Mr. Doom and Gloom said...

no manager treats each player the same, no matter what they say. not narrooon, not dusty, nobody. except maybe trey hillman, but he's crazy.

juan pierre has one of the worst contracts in baseball. his OBP the last 2 seasons stinks, (.326 and .330), the guy never walks, doesn't hit for power, and he has the arm of well...corey patterson. they're pretty much the same player at this point, pierre will hit 20-30 points higher but is still not an ideal leadoff guy with that miserable OBP. his best days are far behind him.

at 2:00 PM

Anonymous said...

I never said he wasn't a top 5 pitcher in the NL. I'm just saying he only won the award once. If someone is going to give numbers, figures, and what not, at least give them accurately.

at 2:15 PM

MJ said...

Junior isn't going anywhere unless he wants too. He is a 5-10 guy and has a no trade claus that would complicate trading him to anyone.

at 2:31 PM

Rob Dicken said...

I never said he wasn't a top 5 pitcher in the NL. I'm just saying he only won the award once. If someone is going to give numbers, figures, and what not, at least give them accurately.

Thanks for pointing out my inaccuracies! I am guessing this is the point where I offer you a cookie? /sarcasm

The point of the argument was to say that he's not just a normal pitcher we can crank homers off of. I think a stat was thrown out that said he only gave up 12 homeruns all year last year in 30+ starts...2 Cy Youngs, 1 Cy Young...it doesn't matter. The sinkerballer is hard to hit. Point blank.

I have a lot of faith in this year's Reds team. Too many pessimistic point of views after the first game, though. It's quite irritating.

at 2:42 PM

Another losing season said...

at 3:29 PM

Rob Dicken said...

You probably don't want to argue the point because you have no argument but to say Harang pitched just as well as Webb is just the type of head-in-the-sand analysis Red's fans aspire to. Did Webb give up two solo dingers yesterday? Nope. I will type this slowly for you. When you are going against CY-Young award winning pitcher's, bring your best game. Anything else you will end up a moral victory. BTW, read the Enquirer! Harang blames himself for this loss because of those two pitches.

Are you delusional? IF you seriously think there's a difference between 2 solo homers and 2 runs scored, then you seriously need to reassess kindergarten mathematics. 2 runs = 2 runs no matter how they are scored. Harang and Webb both gave up 2 earned runs each during the game.

They may have a replay of the game tonight on FSN. It might be possible you need to re-watch it, because I think you're missing the fact that defense and hitting lost this game for the Reds.

I really don't care what Harang said in the Enquirer. The fact is that he didn't lose the game for the Reds. He pitched a good game, and if you can honestly tell me you wouldn't take 2 runs in 6 innings by a pitcher, then you must be vacationing in a fantasy world of constant shut out baseball.

at 4:19 PM

Another losing season said...

at 4:29 PM

Al in Ohio said...

Doom and Gloom, let me start by saying I think that giving up 2 ER per start by Harang probably will NOT be typical. For any starter to have a 2.00 ERA while pitching the majority of their games in GABP would be nothing short of extraordinary.

The point I was trying to make about redfuture's post is that it seems patently absurd to crow over the troubles of a team's closer, when that team won their game, and use that as a sign that your team, which lost, is better off. He also seems to have ignored the excellent jobs done by both starters (Zambrano and Sheets), and the jobs done by the supposedly also weak bullpen of Torres, Mota, and Riske for the Brewers.

I think it's great that Reds fans are optimistic this year. But watching the Cubs-Brewers game yesterday, those teams lineups are loaded. I'm sorry, but the Reds don't run out a starting eight that matches those two teams. I tend to agree with Jack in Blue Ash's point that an improvement to around 82 wins is a much more realistic hope for the Reds this season.

at 4:35 PM

Pops said...

"Pierre in LA is on the trade market.(.296 avg 200 hits,60 SB's)Sounds like the reds need to make a deal.Shore up that CF position with Pierre.He brings good defense, speed,a lead off guy who gets on base, a great work ethic, and someone who has produced,not a pretender."

This is the kind of thinking that will indeed continue the Reds on a losing path if the front office choses to consider idiotic suggestions from fan-boys. Let me point out a couple of things that you probably did not know which will inevitably lead you to some sort of knuckle-dragging response.

Player A- has led the league in outs twice and been in the top five 3 other times. He has a .348 career OBP and has led the league in times caught stealing 4 out of the last 5 years (wasted outs) with an 81% stolen base rate. He also scored 96 runs last season.

Player B- Scored 101 runs last season and also has an 81% stolen base rate, but he gets on at a much higher career rate with a lovely .380 OBP. Oh yeah, and he's also hit 40 homers in each of the last 4 seasons.

Any guesses as to the identities of these mystery men: Player A is none other than the laughably overvalued Juan Pierre, and Player B is the much maligned (and dubiously undervalued) Adam Dunn.

Don't let a little thing like informing your opinion get in the way of spouting it.

at 4:38 PM

Rob Dicken said...

The defense cost the Red's one run. Considering Webb was pitching, the hitting was about average.

Why won't you acknowledge that a pitcher cannot make mistakes when going against the league's best pitcher? Do you simply not believe it or doesn't it fit with your argument. You want me to say Harang pitched well? OK, he pitched well. Well enough to beat the number 3, 4 and 5 starters of an opposing rotation, but not nearly good enough to beat a guy like Webb. That is the point here. Giving up home runs has been this team's achilles heal since 03.

By the way, Burton failed miserably as well. But then again using your logic, that was just one run. No big deal.

Sorry, you're not going to suck me into loser denial.

You're not getting anywhere with me on this argument, because when a pitcher gives up only 2 runs in a ball game, he should beat ANY pitcher he faces. If he doesn't, his offense isn't doing their job.

Brandon Webb gave up 2 runs, right? Did he win the ballgame? Yep. Defense and hitting put the nail in the coffin for Harang during that game. If it wasn't for that, we would have won the game or at least went into extra innings at the very least.

Burton just drove the nail in the coffin further by giving up a home run to Jeff Salazar. A right handed pitcher should NEVER throw a cut fastball to a left handed hitter.

BTW, I just checked...Jake Peavy was the Cy Young winner last year. I believe he had a little under a 3.00 earned run average and won almost 20 games. So if the Cy Young winner is giving up about 3 runs a game, and Harang gave up 2, wouldn't that be enough to beat a number 1 pitcher on a ball club?

Just a thought!

at 5:14 PM

reaganspad said...

If the Reds wanted Juan Pierre, they would have signed Kenny Lofton, who is better and cheaper that Pierre.

They signed Patterson, because unlike the other 2 names, he has upside

at 5:26 PM

Another losing season said...

That's fine, we can disagree. What resonates with me is this was just another game the Red's could have won and I believe we will see plenty of games like this despite the changes that were made.

at 6:24 PM

Anonymous said...

I would love a cookie. Preferably a sugar cookie. (That's not sarcasm)

at 8:48 PM

MJ said...

NEWS FLASH - One of my favorite people, former Reds closer Danny Graves, signed a minor-league contract with the Minnesota Twins Sunday. Graves, struggling at the time, was run out of town by the Reds after he responded to a fan’s racial slur/insult.

The 38-year-old righthander led the independent Atlantic League in saves last season for the Long Island Ducks. The Twins invited Graves to throw for them and when he did and they liked what they saw they permitted him to pitch in some minor-league games this spring. They rewarded him with a contract.

at 9:05 PM

Rob Dicken said...

That's fine, we can disagree. What resonates with me is this was just another game the Red's could have won and I believe we will see plenty of games like this despite the changes that were made.

I am not sure what there is to disagree about. What I stated is pure baseball common sense. For some reason, I feel like I am explaining reason to an infant!

Anyway, I do agree with you that this could have been a game the Reds could have won. Which (I am sure that you will disagree) could have been prevented if the offense and defense were present during this game. They were not, therefore we lost the game.

at 10:02 PM

firefly118 said...

at 10:41 PM

REddlegg in Colorado said...

From pops,

"Don't let a little thing like informing your opinion get in the way of spouting it."

"Ditto!!!"

Its a baseball blog,opinions are openly shared.IF you want everyone to agree with you,then why even blog.Ever heard of having an open mind & thinking for yourself, Pops.It's really a great thing.Sorry it took me so long to respond(Which I can tell you were begging for)I was off today & 20" of fresh colorado powder was calling my name.

Life is grand :-)

at 9:22 AM

Rob Dicken said...

Fay, are you kidding me? He finished 2nd and won the Cy Young!!! I agree he is a good pitcher, but like I said before, who VOTES FOR THE AWARDS? People like you, the media, and they gave Brandon Phillips gold glove away too. I guess he wasn't the best 2nd baseman, hahaha. Webb is not a top 5 pitcher. Santana, Oswalt, Peavy, Hammels, and yes HARRANG! I will even say Penny and Smoltz are both better, but that is pushing it a little!

I think you have to give Santana a chance to pitch in the NL before saying he is better than anyone. There are a couple of factors that are different in the NL than in the AL. One being, in the AL you just pitch and rely on 9 other hitters to get the runs for you. In the NL, the pitcher actually hits. So now, not only does the guy have to worry about pitching, he has to hit too. As corny as that may sound, it does have an effect on the players and the length they can stay in the games. Especially if they have to run the bases.

BTW, Cole Hammels is NOT better than Brandon Webb and is NOT a top 5 pitcher in the NL. I agree he is good, but he's absolutely not better than Brandon Webb and if you honestly think so, then you're delusional. Ask any baseball analyst or even read up on recommendations for Fantasy Baseball. Brandon Webb is a top 5 pitcher in the MLB as far as fantasy drafts.

Here's the top 10 pitchers in the NL:

Jake Peavy
Brandon Webb
Aaron Harang
Johan Santana
Roy Oswalt
Cole Hamels
Dan Haren
Carlos Zambrano
John Smoltz
Brad Penny

This is a ranking according to ERA, Strikeouts, and fantasy comparison.

BTW, in official fantasy rankings (and I am sure this doesn't matter to you), but Brandon Webb is ranked the 5th best starter in the MLB. And that is according to IP, Wins/Losses, Ks, and ERA.

at 1:09 PM

firefly118 said...

Rob Dicken! To be as kind as I can be! FANTASY, SERIOUSLY, that is what you are posting on. FANTASY IS THE WORD, A REAL FANTASY!

at 1:38 PM

Pops said...

"Ditto!!!"

Wow. Pithy.

Not sure after all that I wrote that you would conclude that I was not thinking for myself. I was illustrating that in the mind of many, a guy like Pierre is a good lead-off man.--He is not. Steals, hits, and batting average are fine if not misleading stats about a player's relative worth. The idea in the leadoff spot is to get on base (not solely via a weakly batted ball) but to draw walks as well(i.e. get on base and score more runs). The stolen base is vastly overvalued because if you do not arrive safely at a minimum of 85% of the time then you are costing your team potential runs. These are wasted outs, just like the times that Pierre "agressively" grounds out or pops-up. Even though a guy like Johnnie B. Baker calls people who take walks "basecloggers" they tend to score more runs than people who ground out or hit into double plays because they are trying to make contact at the peril of strike-zone discipline. But I guess if a guy is fast and hits .300 he must be a good leadoff man. This logic is factually incorrect, thus we have Corey Patterson in center. He's fast and swings a lot, and he rarely gets on base. When will fans and mgmt. learn that fast and scrappy does not always mean good. It often means wasted opportunities to score.

at 1:55 PM

Rob Dicken said...

Rob Dicken! To be as kind as I can be! FANTASY, SERIOUSLY, that is what you are posting on. FANTASY IS THE WORD, A REAL FANTASY!

Way to cover yourself!

Fantasy sports is controlled entirely by statistics. So, ACCORDING TO STATISTICS, Brandon Webb is the 2nd best starter in the NL and 5th best in the MLB.

I suppose your analysis on Brandon Webb is to be considered as legit, right Mr. "firefly"? Your analysis is based on pure opinion and the best you can come back with is that I a living in my own fantasy world because I am comparing statistics? Give me a break! I just gave you logical information based on analysis of ESPN, Yahoo Sports, and STATS Inc. The very best that you have is, "Cole Hamels is better than Brandon Webb," and, "FANTASY IS THE WORD, A REAL FANTASY!"

You need to seriously come up with something better. It's alright to give an opinion, but base it on something logical.

Previous Posts

Monday, March 31, 2008

One small play, one big difference

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