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John Fay
John Fay has been the Reds beat writer for the Enquirer since 2001. Prior to that, he served in a variety of roles for the Enquirer: backup Reds writer, UC beat writer, backup Bengals writer and as a general assignment reporter. He is a Cincinnati native and a graduate of Elder High School and the University of Dayton.

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Sunday, June 17, 2007

Time to skip Arroyo?

The Reds off day Thursday would allow them to skip a starter. Bronson Arroyo sounded like a guy who could use some extra rest after Sunday's 11-4 loss to Texas.

Arroyo says he's fine physically. But he admitted he’s a bit worn down. His struggles began after a 129-pitch effort in San Diego.

“I’m fine,” he said. “But I don’t feel strong, but nothing’s bothering me. I don’t feel like have as much zip on my fastball. That can pose a problem. People don’t have to respect my off-speed stuff as much.”

Arroyo’s trying to get that zip back.

“You’re always tooling with your diet and your supplements and your workouts,” he said. “I got a find to a way to get back where I’m strong enough to beat guys with a fastball even when they know it’s coming.”

Again, the Reds have an off day Thursday in Seattle. That will give Arroyo an extra day of rest. The Reds could skip him altogether and give him 10 days or so rest.


at 7:26 PM Blogger bruceglazer said...

Ever wonder about the KC, Washington, or Texas fans who constantly support a perennial loser?
I was always glad not to have to view "my" Reds that way ~ until now...

I have been a fan since 1964 (even though I live
in Red Sox territory). After today's debacle against
the Rangers, I am now (sadly) realizing that this team belongs with those other perennial losers.

This team no consistency in any area - except losing... Players tend to imitate each other's worst attributes; the manager and his staff are totally ineffective (Narron manages like a Little League manager with all his ineffective lineup and pitching changes); Krivsky does not seem to have a clue or a personality; and Castellini seems to have gone into a trance.

If we take off our rose-colored glasses (no pun intended!) what is their real future? Look at the minor league prosepects. For example, Krivsky brings up Michael Gosling, and Narron brings him into a game only three days after his last start, then removes him after 2/3 inning. What is Narron's point - to destroy Gosling's arm and self-confidence, all in one game!?

Like you, I will continue watching them, but not with the same dedication and fervor as in past seasons years. Which reminds me: Anyone want to buy two great seats to the Reds @ Mets game
on Sat, July 14? I no longer want to attend!

at 8:13 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like Bronson Arroyo but maybe he needs to be skipped for 10 days to give him some time off - physically and mentally.

at 8:28 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's an idea - instead of skipping, resting, days off. How about if Jerry Narron uses the off day to YELL. YELL. YELL. Maybe even physically lighting fires under their butts.

This is pathetic, awful, ridiculous. And nobody that can do anything about it seems willing to.

Has anyone tugged on Bob Castellini's face to see if it's a mask? I'm guessing Mike Brown is under there somewhere.

at 9:00 PM Anonymous Justin Fernandez said...

Before Arroyo's good start I suggested skipping him. Livingston and Bailey have done better in the past 30 days overall. But Arroyo seemingly can pitch a great game at any time. Sure hope he doesn't wait another 3 starts to do so. Now that Narron is keeping Dunn at cleanup and most of the lineup consistent, I find it harder to criticize him. I maintain, however, that the players don't have much confidence in him based on conjecture and observation. Another losing homestand = a team that can't quite get fired up enough to do what the Yankees did (put a large winning streak together). I don't expect miracles from Narron but losing 2 of 3 to the worst team in baseball here a few weeks after embarrassing themselves against the Nationals keeps the Reds on track to be the worst team in Baseball (by record) this year. If that result is satisfactory for Castellini et al., then they should "stick with what got them here" (Narron and Hatteberg and the stinkers in the bullpen). Why Arroyo should be tired or worn out is an enormous mystery. Modern day ballplayers are too coddled. He's young and fit and has zero excuse for being rag-armed this early in the season. May I suggest putting away the guitar and focusing on baseball only until October (er, rather September)...?

at 9:01 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi, John. Skipping Arroyo makes a lot of sense. His arm is fried, and his confidence has to be pretty shot as well. Two other questions. First, do you see Dunn being moved before the trade deadline, and second, are you a little surprised Gosling got called up rather than Livinston? Thanks, Alex

at 9:22 PM Blogger Redsheart said...

To rest arm is good for him. Does he go with the team? I hope he'll better at the next outing.

at 9:49 PM Anonymous jc said...

guardado not impressive today

at 11:13 PM Anonymous ADMS said...

I'm getting a feeling that we are seeing the real Arroyo. It used to be that we could excuse his losses (and most were especially last year) on the total breakdown of the batters - think Nolan Ryan on those awful Angels and Rangers teams - he'd lead the league in strikeouts and other major stats, but have a losing record. That doesn't seem to be the case this year with Bronson. His breaking ball and curves don't dance like they did last year and his pitch count gets way too high too quickly.
I wonder if a lot of this (or at least some of it) can be seen as the National League paying more attention to him. When he got here last year, his wild pitching style, high kick, and sick breaking and curve balls had to just stun batters. Not any longer...
To compare - think of Hideo Nomo. When he started with LA (the real LA...not the Angels of a Strip Mall in Orange County), his almost turn around delivery and curveballs froze everyone and I believe he did lead the NL in K's his rookie year. After a year or two...the cat was out of the bag and he was hittable.
I think Bronson needs to work with any and all pitching coaches and maybe mix up his game a bit. He can still be an excellent pitcher, but with his ERA and losses adding up, please do it quickly. We have a long term deal with this guy!

at 11:32 PM Blogger kingseyeland said...

Baseball fans' memories are too short. Arroyo went through a stretch like this last year and didn't come out of it for what seemed like 2 months. I dunno, I think I see a pattern...

at 11:38 PM Blogger Shawn said...

Arroyo is pitching like a sore-armed pitcher. He may not realize it, or just not be admitting it, but that's what he looks like.

at 11:46 PM Blogger trailguide said...

How about skipping the whole line up to Louisville. They can't get much more out of the race and it might make for more interesting baseball.

It might do these "major" league players some good to draw some triple A pay for a while.

at 11:51 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's June 17th and it's already....wait'll next year.

What a joke of a franchise. Narron is the luckiest coach in all of sports. Hell, the Detroit Pistons considered firing Saunders because he lost in the conference finals.

Reds' fans would be lucky if changes are made after the season.

This year's Reds should be called "The Big Red Masochists" for what they are putting the fans through.

Hey John, why don't you and the rest of the media take the next 3 months off and just run the same articles you've been posting since opening day. Has the story line changed?

at 12:20 AM Blogger Chris at Redleg Nation said...

Three high-use, high-stress outings, followed by six horrible starts. What a surprise.

Also no surprise? That everyone denies that Arroyo has any physical problems. As they will, right until he goes on the DL.

Hopefully, I'm completely full of it, and Arroyo snaps out of it.

at 1:09 AM Blogger Dan H said...

Probably not a bad idea to skip Arroyo. Just got back home to the Buffalo area after going to GABP to watch the Rangers series. Other than some decent individual performances the team looked terrible on defense especially Sunday. Griffey was definitely locked in on Sat both in BP and during the game. Will be going to the Bats-Buffalo Bisons game Monday nite to check out Eddie G. Heard he did not look good in Rochester Sunday. I'll post the observation on Monday nite.

at 4:10 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Put Arroyo on the DL with a tired arm. Then have someone from AAA make his starts while hes on the DL.

Protect his arm for next season.

at 8:00 AM Anonymous BobThe RedsFan said...

When Arroyo is pitching well, the ball looks like it travels parallel to the ground about a foot high. When he is not pitching well, it looks like he lets go higher, the ball has a downward trajectory, and never gets as low.

I don't know if this is because, when he is right, he lets go of the ball later (and therefore lower) or if his stride is longer (and therefore he is lower on the mound) or what, but you can clearly see it when he is right.

Hope they can figure out what is wrong.

at 8:07 AM Blogger Don said...

Majewski struggled too, giving up an ER in one inning of relief.

Votto continues to rake though.

at 8:26 AM Anonymous mikec said...

This is the risk with a bad manager like Narron. Let's just hope those 129 pitches didn't cause any real damage to Arroyo.

at 9:08 AM Anonymous Red Faced said...

I'm afraid to say it but after taking a week to think about it I'm convinced that next year is a money year for the Reds. As in we are not going to spend any money. I think we'll move Dunn and acquire some young prospects and of course we won't have Milton's contract any longer so that knocks our payroll down 20 million. We'll most likely not sign anyone worth noting, maybe a bullpen guy who's average at best. We'll basically play the season with the same core players we have now along with a handful of call-ups to see who can contribute and who won't. But basically we'll be playing for 2009. Just a feeling I have. There is a lot of tallent on this team and we should be playing much better than we are. Just be prepared for an equally bad season next year.

at 9:11 AM Blogger omnired said...

2005 - 205 IP - highest in his career (at that time)
2006 - 240 IP - highest in his career, averaging 110 pitches per start.

Then came the three game, eleven day stretch from May 6 - May 16 2007: 120 pitches, 117 pitches, 129 pitches. It's like watching Dusty Baker kill a pitching staff.

"But I don’t feel strong, but nothing’s bothering me. I don’t feel like have as much zip on my fastball."

Unfortunately, this sounds a lot like a quote I've heard many players say about 2-4 weeks before they are diagnosed with some sort of major season-ending arm injury. You see the bad outings, the deterioration of stats, and the quotes that the pitcher just can't throw it as hard as they used to.

Things were pointing that direction when Arroyo was having trouble getting through or past the 6th inning earlier this season. Then, instead of watching his workload, Narron lets him throw that much in early May.

at 9:58 AM Blogger Pat said...

bruceglazer, I feel your pain. I have directv, and therefore have access to seeing all the teams. This year I have enjoyed watching the Diamonbacks (where I live) and the Yankees (you gotta love an ownership that puts winning over profits) more than I have the Reds (fan since 1970). My heart will always be with the reds, but with the current economic system in baseball small market teams will rarely have a chance to win the WS.

at 11:41 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Skip Arroyo...That's something Sparky would've done.

at 12:03 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Possibly Arroyo was never that good in the first place. His average pitching history and the fact that the Sox were willing to let him loose for a backup(Wily Mo) certainly suggests as much.

He pitched very well before the break last year but has been average to bad ever since. Say he doesn't ever get back to that form. We're stuck in another Eric Milton situation where we have to run the guy out there avery 5 days because he's making X-amount of dollars.

Not to be so down on the guy, but before last year the best ERA he had ever posted in a full season was 4.03 in 2004 and then 4.52 in 2005. You trust a half of a season or the rest of his career, which suggests he's pretty average?

at 12:56 PM Anonymous Justin Fernandez said...

Better fire Narron and hire Girardi before the Orioles hire him! This is the real Arroyo, imo. But this isn't the real Reds...fire Narron and get a firey driver leader-type for a manager and we'll see a much better team. Lots of talent on the Reds led by a manager that is clearly NOT cut out for the job.

at 1:09 PM Blogger Brad said...

Jerry Naron doesn't have the meat or the potatoes to bench Arroyo.

at 1:22 PM Anonymous yuk said...

Reds, especially pitchers are complete losers and they should start selling soon, since season is again a lost. While Reds owner keep sitting on the fence supporting losers manager and GM, Orioles just have announced firing their losing manager and start looking for another skipper, probably Girardi. Keep sitting and at the end again only losers players and managers will be available. From MD.

at 1:42 PM Blogger eneg said...

Bronson Arroyo makes significant contributions in the community including benefit concerts. While that's a good thing maybe he should concentrate on these activities in the off-season and get some rest since he says he's "tired".
It's too soon to give up on him as a pitcher who can help the Reds.

at 2:00 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is past the time to start talking about and to Joe Girardi. Narron isn't getting the job done. It is hard to rag on a guy that has seen his team lose every way possible but this lazy team needs someone up in there faces everyday...and that guy is Joe G.

at 3:29 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

What here suggests he'll ever turn this around?


I'm flat out embarrassed to be a Reds fan right now. Not unlike the feeling of being a Bengals fan in 2002.

at 3:32 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a huge reds fan, and i honstly dont think the season is over this team just has to want it. i see only the starting picthing (expect arroyo) and the starting line up going in there trying to win every game. Its the bullpen that kills them they have 3 guys who pitch great when there in there mcbeth, wheathers,coulangus everybody else always has an excuse why they dont make pitches. I think the reds can win the division if they do these things the next 20 games. fire narron, dick pole, and the hitting coach all these guys just arent cutting it. narron manges like he is playin a ea sports game and the changing of the line up gets to me. move dunn down to number six that will help everyone in the line up. stop playing castro!!!! starting pitching should go harang,loshe, belie,arroyo, bailey. bullpen only use those who pitch consentent. for coaches hire dusty baker and bring in Jeff Brantley the man knows how to pitch he could help these young guys. have team captains who will challange everybody to play 100% percent everyday not some days

at 7:38 PM Blogger Pat said...

The Reds can't afford Girardi.

at 11:36 AM Anonymous Justin Fernandez said...

17 games under .500 and you don't think this season is over? The Reds don't have the offense or pitching that Milwaukee has, and for all their early-season woes the Astros, Cubs, and Cardinals simply have better teams and far better managers than we do!

It's not enough that Phillips and Hamilton were added, especially when Germano and Harris and Lopez and Kearns and Wily Mo were "the future" of this team until Fickleivsky and Co. decided they were fooling other teams into giving up something better (you don't get much better than the GM at Boston for getting better players for lesser ones).

Anyway, I'm really sick of the lousy ownership and leadership since Marge's heydey. What a shame this city has to suffer through consecutive Reds fiascos at the top, and there's apparently no end to the torture in sight!

Krivsky and Narron are two of the worst things that have happened to the Reds.

I expect 3 lousy trades for every good acquisition and utterly demoralized play until both are gone.

Proper ownership would NEVER have hired a Narron or signed a Milton or obtained a Stanton or Majewski (or a Hatteberg or Gonzalez or Coffey) NEVER NEVER NEVER. Proper ownership would demand better talent evaluation and above all else, RESULTS. Proper ownership would have sent Krivsky packing by now.

Apparently Bob the Brave Baseball Genius prefers loyalty and losing to winning.

He's loyal to the scouts and GM and manager despite an overall dismal record of achievement. What this organization needs to a mass-firing at the top!

I'll bet you that as long as Krivsky and Narron are Reds the Reds will be cellar-dwellers.

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