Reds payroll: $74.1million
USA Today published baseball's payrolls. The Reds are at $74.1 million, 10th in the National League, fifth in the NL Central, 18th in the majors. Yankees check in at $209 million, Marlins at $21 million.
Biggest surprise to me: Corey Patterson is making $3 million. He came in on a minor league deal, but must have gotten a big bump for making the club.
posted by John Fay at 11:59 AM
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Post a Comment*Do you think that Dusty Baker is getting a cut of that?
ST CSA
I didn't mind Patterson making the team, when I thought he was making something like $500k. It was a low-risk move to take a chance that this was the year that everything finally clicked for Patterson. But $3 million is a ridiculous amount to pay this guy. Wayne needs to realize he is Dusty's boss, and not vise-versa.
Chad
so, norris hopper, our best CF option is making @ 400,000, while freel and patterson both get 3 million. makes sense, service time thing i guess?
how patterson ever got that much out of anyone for playing baseball is beyond me. dusty better be getting a cut of that, and fogg better be getting in touch with patterson's agent.
3 million?! Wow, I haven't heard any word of that in the local media. I thought Hopper deserved the job this year based on last seasons performance including a 370 OBP with 37 infield hits. But I guess it was in our best interest to pay 3 million for a guy with a career OBP of .297. Just because your fast doesn't mean your a leadoff hitter. Thats a waste of money IMO.
$3 million is ridiculous.
although the pitching has a chance to be way improved.... the rest of the team is the same.
how long do you keep the kids on the bench.
does anyone truly feel that hatteberg and patterson or hopper are going to get us where we want to be?
the question is... how long do the rest of you think you go before you pull the trigger and play the kids...
3 games back
5 games back
7 games back.
the leash needs to be very short in my opinion. we are building here.
Yeah, I'm gotta go ahead and say that we've overpaid Patterson.
Yeah that comes as a bit of a shocker. But I'll reserve judgment till we play more than a game. Yeah I know "the back of the baseball card" argument.
But I think Dusty isn't the only one to blame if Patterson fails, you can put the blame on. You have to include Bob and maybe Walt.
Time will tell.
Yesterday I was looking at the payroll info on ESPN and I saw Patterson listed at 3 mil. I thought it must be a typo. I was sure I would have read about it (and the ensuing vitriol) on this blog. Now, here it is. Honestly, while I am surprised, I'm not that upset about it. That is the average pay in the MLB, and Patterson is average.
Houston is at 88M, Milwaukee is at 80M, St. Louis at 99M, and the Cubs at 118M.
While certainly spending money does not guarantee anything, the Reds could utilize a better hitting 3B (EE is too streaky for my taste, both offensively and defensively) & a better hitting catcher... It sounds like, to spend with the division, they might have been able to obtain such a player...
The Reds do have good prospects in the minors, so hopefully they materialize on the pitching side. However, the Reds certainly could upgrade the catching and 3B positions.
WOW, is right! I am not happy about Patterson in the first place, now I find out he makes 3 mil. I just don't understand it, and I think this is Dusty's stamp on the club. I respect Dusty, but doing things like this can really hurt ya quick, especially if this guy continues to have an OB% of
.315.
My other comment is this: Cincy is a smaller market team, and I understand (and am glad) we don't spend like the Yanks or Sox. With that said, you get what you pay for (most of the time). The reason we finish 5th in the division and 10th in the NL and so on is a direct connection with our payroll. CURSE ME IF YOU WANT, but the numbers don't lie. I know there will be comments like the Marlins winning one year and us in 90' and the other small market feel good stories, but those are exceptions to the rule. BOTTOM LINE, you have to pay $$ to get the best players on your team. And, if you happen to have a few good players who are just new to the scene....YOU HAVE TO PLAY THEM TO WIN (Bruce, Votto, Bailey).
We should be at about 84 million this year to be competetive. If CF was in need of a FA to fill it, we should have gotten Tori Hunter or Andruw Jones, not Patterson!
How about one of the reporters actually asking a question of the GM as to what the logic is there with the .298 OBP at the top of the lineup. I'd much rather know the answer to that than get news about Dusty not knowing Homer's real name, or the Karaoke Party.
What team was offering $2.9 million?
well boyz...let's look at the bright side. at least this $3 mil is spent on somebody who's actually on the team.
Looking at the list, to Krivsky's credit, the Reds don't have any "bad" contracts. Cordero has to earn his money for all 4 years.
Having Arroyo and Harang at 4.? and 6.? million is ridiculously good given the salaries paid to bad SP's last offseason.
At least the Reds aren't paying Felipe Lopez 4.9 million to sit on the bench.
How did the Reds get Fogg for $400,000? Does he have incentives? Fogg at $400,000 may be the best contract on the team.
I'd like to know how
A couple things that need to be said, because I just can't take it anymore.
a.) There's such a thing as 'service time,' and when you look into it, it helps the Reds long term to keep Bruce in the minors until June. If Bruce is half as good as we think he is, then we will all thank Krivsky in five years for not playing Bruce now.
b.) Norris Hopper had 37 infield hits last year, which aids his on base percentage much more than you'd think. He has zero upside, offensively or defensively.
c.) Ryan Freel is infinitely more valuable as a utility guy than as an everyday player. If you don't know that, you're not watching the team.
Read points a, b, and c, and point d is the logical conclusion:
d.) Corey Patterson, with his combination of speed and defense (did you see his range Monday?!?!) is obviously the most logical choice for the centerfield job, as well as the leadoff position (who else is going to do it - Phillips?).
Seriously, everyone needs to settle down. The Reds are playing the toughest April-May schedule in the league, and Corey Patterson is not the reason we're going to lose to Arizona, New York, Philadelphia and Cleveland.
And in my opinion, Jeremy Affeldt as a $3 million reliever is much more absurd than Patterson's $3 mil.
can someone post a list of the salaries?
i do believe that harangs and arroyos contracts are back loaded
Affeldt, Jeremy $ 3,000,000
Arroyo, Bronson $ 4,575,000
Bako, Paul $ 750,000
Belisle, Matt $ 1,250,000
Burton, Jared (Levi) $ 395,000
Castro, Juan $ 975,000
Coffey, Todd $ 907,500
Cordero, Francisco $ 8,625,000
Cueto, Johnny $ 390,000
Dunn, Adam $ 13,000,000
Encarnacion, Edwin $ 450,000
Fogg, Josh $ 400,000
Freel, Ryan $ 3,000,000
Gonzalez, Alex Luis $ 4,625,000
Griffey Jr., Ken $ 8,282,695
Harang, Aaron $ 6,750,000
Hatteberg, Scott $ 1,850,000
Hopper, Norris $ 402,500
Keppinger, Jeff $ 402,500
Lincoln, Mike $ 550,000
Livingston, Bobby $ 392,500
Mercker, Kent $ 600,000
Patterson, Corey $ 3,000,000
Phillips, Brandon $ 2,937,500
Ross , David $ 2,525,000
Volquez, Edison $ 392,500
Votto, Joey $ 390,000
Weathers, David $ 3,300,000
Hey John can you please post a Louisville Bats roster before tomorrow please?
In the grand scheme of Baseball that's peanuts. So is the money that they're eating for Stanton. The local media has made a big deal out of it but its part of doing business in MLB today.
The bottom line is this
"Not my money don't give a damn."
Hey John,
Just curious here -- Do you know how "minor league deals" like the one Patterson came in on work?
Do they negotiate an "in case you make the big club" salary ahead of time, when the deal is initially agreed to?
The Amazing Krivsky strikes again!
ST CSA
Ashland, I'm not going to argue with any of your points, except to say they're not relevent in this case. In this particular thread, we are (mostly) all ticked about how much he's making. $3M is ridiculous for someone who couldn't get a job.
John, Any news with regards to Hairston and Cabrera accepting their assignment. Also did anyone claim Coutlangus or Stanton for that matter? I pretty much echo Ashlands comments as well. It is a tough schedule and Patterson's defense will help this pitching staff and hopefully keep the Reds close to the top in the NL Central during this stretch.
And in my opinion, Jeremy Affeldt as a $3 million reliever is much more absurd than Patterson's $3 mil.
Nothing is more absurd than paying Mike Stanton $3 million to sit on his couch and get more fat...
Actually, my mistake... paying Mike Stanton $3 million to lose games for the Reds is much more ridiculous.
Ashland hits the nail dead on the head with each and every point he just made!
Good post.
Patterson's upside is better than either Freel or Hopper. In fact, it's not even close.
And yes, Affeldt is a much worse signing at 3 million.
Wow so Patterson and Freel both make more than Phillips? Insane.
$4.6 million for Alex Gonzalez. I wonder if he feels dirty everytime he cashes a check. And $3 million for a middle relief guy and were paying $6 million combined for two centerfielders that no one wants to see start. Who are these guys agents? They are doing a wonderful job.
Ashland Ateam: ????
Freel and Hopper aren't the answer in CF, that part your right on.
Not playing Bruce now, makes absolutely no sense!
Patterson speed and defense? Come on, do you think he is better defensively than Bruce?? He made plays in the first game that anyone of about 5 guys on the team could make.
Phillips in the leadoff? ABSOLUTELY! He is the perfect fit for a leadoff guy, and he would be even better offensively if he was the leadoff guy. If we had the lineup we should, Phillips would leadoff and Bruce would bat cleanup!
Patterson at $3million and Encarnarcion at $450k? I just hope it he is not another three million dollar player that has to be cut this year. Really, I hope he has a good year and proves us wrong and I hope he starts that good year tonight!
Griffey, Jr. looks like a bargain on that list! $8 for one of the two scariest bats in the lineup? Sign him up longer! Let him finish his career as a Red.
37 hits whether in the infield or outfield means he Hopper is still on base. It's not as if the Reds were in a bidding war to get Patterson. You can't convince me having Patterson makes the Reds better. I am comfortable with Hopper playing CF until Bruce is ready. In my opinion Patterson was a waste of money.
Krivsky told me that everyone who didn't make the team is going to minors.
Thanks for posting the list Bruce. I started to and forgot.
By the way, USA Today has a great data base of salaries and payrolls.
Patterson for $3M, good lord... I agree with Schlemdog, what team was offering $2.9M? He was probably happy somebody offered him more than a ham sandwich to play in the big leagues, but I guess that wasn't part of Jocketty / Dusty's calculation.
Beware Walt Jocketty...he 'successfully' built a franchise in St Louis based on aging veterans and fragile pitchers. Anybody that belives in his work (ahem, Castellini) better take a good hard look at the state of that Cardinals franchise. Winners aren't constructed of patchwork free agents, and fringy pitchers.
"b.) Norris Hopper had 37 infield hits last year, which aids his on base percentage much more than you'd think. He has zero upside, offensively or defensively"
what does the infield hits have to do with anything? it's obp, not slugging or ops, you get on base or you don't, and a leadoff hitter's job is to get on base. regardless, that's not the question here...the question is why in the hell would you pay patterson 3 million dollars? is he 2.6 million better than hopper?
agreed on freel and affeldt, but a freel/hopper platoon would've suited me fine and saved the club 3 million they could've spent elsewhere.
not sure how accurate that list is, i thought for sure fogg signed for 1 million after turning down 5 million from colorado
as far as bad contracts go, and i say this with no knowledge of league minimums, service time etc. except for knowing they exist...castro should be making league minimum, patterson's deal is hideous, (like the line about who offered him 2.9 btw), ross ain't worth half that, and jr. has the mac-daddy of all bad contracts, thought to be fair, no one could've predicted it when he signed.
Freel and Hopper both post much better career OBPs than Patterson and therefore are better leadoff options. It's not arguable. If you want Patterson's range in there, then fine, but you bat him 7the or 8th, not as the guy at the top of the order who should be setting the table instead of making outs. Period.
I'm fine with Bruce not being a true CF, therefore wanting to play Patterson, just not as the leadoff guy. And yes, Phillips' OBP says that he's a better option at the top of the order.
Prior to last year's injury plagued year, Freel was putting up an OBP over .370
Glad they could keep Andy Phillips. I look for him to be here shortly, especially if Encarnacion does not swing the bat. Need a RH bat with some pop.
ST CSA
Here's a link to the salary database:
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx
To see the Reds salaries for this year choose them in the "Team" dropdown and then on the next page click on "2008" in the table below.
Patterson at $3 million per is much closer to an equal cost to value ratio than is the $2.5 million per that David Ross is pulling in. Criminal.
A lot of people go overboard on Krivsky, he hasn't made a bad trade.
Yeah Bray and Majeski(spelling?), didnt work out as projected but really the guys we traded are worse than the current players at their positions so this was a round about upgrade.
But $3 million for Patterson is ridiculous if these numbers are accurate.
Patterson is a good addition to the club, just not at that price.
ashland...your points make sense. i understand the concept of service time. but i don't root for the tampa bay devil rays... or the pittsburgh pirates. call me old fashionede... call me ishmael... i don't give a rats backside. but i want the reds to once again become one of the premier teams now that castellini is here. have they made strides? absolutely. but we are not talking about longoria and the devil rays.
patterson at $3 million....put the money in a t-bill and pay bruce the extra arbitration year in 3 years.
he was hitting 270 in spring training. hardly overmatched.
you did not answere my question....
tough schedule side.. how long do you wait?
"A lot of people go overboard on Krivsky, he hasn't made a bad trade."
Kearns will have a big year this season and the Reds will have nothing in return.
The Hamilton trade could be worse than Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas. I hope not and am withholding judgment. But Volquez had better be super, because Hamilton will be a superstar this season.
The Amazing Krivsky will be gone, if the Reds don't win now. That is the good news.
St CSA
A few bulleted responses, aimed at no one in particular:
- On base percentage does not necessarily equate a solid leadoff option. If it did, then Adam Dunn would lead off for the Reds, Frank Thomas for the Blue Jays, Travis Hafner for the Indians, etc.
- My initial point with Norris Hopper seems to have been missed. He has no power(even of the extra base variety), and employed a league-leading run of infield hits to amass his obp last season. Infield hits are largely luck, which means that they are unreliable, and with no power, that adds up to Norris Hopper having no ceiling or potential as an every day option, leadoff or no. If he is not largely lucky, he is useless. He's a fine fourth outfielder, but not a starter.
- Brandon Phillips is our cleanup hitter, and he is so for a reason. Therefore, shifting him to the leadoff position makes no sense whatsoever.
- Speaking of no sense whatsoever, the notion that Bruce should hit cleanup every day is ridiculous. You want to complain about Dunn's strikeouts? Look at Bruce's numbers in the minors. The kid's not ready, and the Reds know it.
- The question IS NOT 'is Patterson $2.6 million better than Hopper' anymore than we can ask 'is Matt Belisle $900k better than Volquez.' Each player and salary situation is unique.
All of this adds up to the original question - is Corey Patterson worth $3 million? Of course he is! As many have pointed out, the roster is littered with head scratching contracts, and Patterson's is way down on the list.
Cheviot Sports Authority, I agree with most of your posts but I disagree with your Robinson for Pappas comparison with the Hamilton/Volquez trade. The Reds, for the most part, have needed a stronger rotation for years. To get something, you have to give up something. We all know how valuable pitching is. Hamilton plays CF. How many players can play CF with the Reds right now? Including Bruce, 4? Hamilton would have made it 5. Obviously, our Reds scouted Volquez
for some time. They knew what they were getting. I get tired of them making trades for prospects that never pan out, too. This kid, so far, has shown he deserves a spot in the rotation. He WILL take his lumps along the way. I have no doubt Hamilton will be a superstar but it's a gamble worth taking. Pitching is a much higher commodity than OF. I hope everyone gives this kid a chance before they let out a "told ya so!. I'd rather win 3-2 than 10-9. Homers are sexy but if this kid holds less than a 4.00 era, that would be absolutely beautiful. Let's face it, for the last number of years, the starting rotation/pitching staff has been "Ugly Betty"!
I agree that it's nice to have speed coupled with OBP. Only both of them together make a great leadoff guy. However, I'd rather have Hatteberg leadoff than Patterson. At least in that case, you'd have a guy on base when the big guns come to the plate. Stealing bases is overrated when you are making an out 70% of your plate appearances.
I'm not sure Phillips batting 4th makes a lot of sense either. This isn't a guy that strikes fear into the hearts of opposing teams. In fact, with men on, I'd love to have a hacker at the plate who swings at junk and won't take a walk. Compared to your typical 4th hitter, he's an easier out. He's better off 1st or 2nd, as this team has several candidates to bat 4th, but not 1st or 2nd. He still wouldn't be the ideal leadoff guy due to OBP, but still a much better option than Patterson.
Agree that Hopper was somewhat lucky, but not that he's useless. He's a solid pinch hitter, defensive sub, pinch runner, and bunter when you need one.
well there's a lot to be discussed here and most of it has been but the one thing I haven't heard anyone else say is this:
at 74 Mil and the second lowest salary in the division this teams seems to have a lot of value when you compare talent to the other teams. I mean this team is better than St Louis and they are at what 99 Mil? And there does appear to be some waste in the salaries that could be gone next year. Griffey will likely be gone although if Dunn is resigned he'll be making more and surely we won't still have both Freel and Patterson, then there's Castro and Affeldt who now appears to be grossly overpaid as well as Patterson.
So in closing, in comparison to the other clubs in the division the Reds ownership looks to have gotten a lot more value for their dollar. Now in 4-5 years when the young talent is hitting Arbitration and Free Agency years we'll have to break the bank to keep them but we'll discuss that then.
About Hopper, a high percentage of a leadoff hitters' at-bats are with nobody on so the infield singles are still useful (and of course if there had been men on base, and a force was made, then these wouldn't have been counted as infield singles). Many of them were bunts by choice. I don't know what his bunt batting avg was but I think it had to be good. As to how much luck is involved, it's a difficult stat to gather. The best way is to see him play more and see if his brand of hitting keeps working. Like Keppinger, he should have earned more respect for what he's done and less worrying about what he won't do. I would've saved the million and used Hopper as a stopgap and treat the situation like Vottoberg.
Red Faced. Good point. It's not how much you spend but how you spend it. But as long as they keep developing young talent through the minors, having some higher priced guys walk might not be a big deal. That's the key.
Matt. It remains to be seen what will happen when a lefty faces the Reds, regarding the CF/leadoff situation.
Firefly, you can't be serious with either of your posts! Henderson (who stole 80+ bases 6 times) was a leadoff hitter you kept at the top of the lineup even though he was a 30 homer guy. Soriano was for one year, because he was on a team with Jeter, A-Rod, and Giambi and no other real leadoff threat. Otherwise? Don't waste the RBIs lost by not batting BP in the middle of the order.
As for the money - 5th in spending and place are coincidence. Yes, there is an undisputable positive correlation between team salary and record, but not so strongly as you suggest. If 4 of the top spenders in the NL are in our division, why is it generally regarded (even by the players on the Reds) as baseball's worst division? I mean, the Astros are paying Oswalt, the Bull and who all that money?! You'll see those number change this year - the Cubs will still finish 1 or 2, with the Reds and the Brewers beating out higher-spending STL and HOU. Pittsburgh, well, they might give the Bats a run for their money.
I love how Hopper's skill of getting bunt hits is equated to luck. That is unbelievable. There is a reason he was atop the league in bunt hits only playing half a season, and the reason isn't luck. We need a leadoff guy on base, not to strike out 100 times. The Reds have a lineup littered with 100 strikeout guys. (also why I like Keppinger)
And Hopper doesn't have any upside? Ok, well when he has gotten chances to play he hits and gets on base. To the tune of a .331 major league average, how much "up" are you looking for? I'll take that. Now Corey Patterson has proven over 7 years of getting chance after chance that he is batting .258 for his career. When's that upside coming around? So we would rather bring in a guy who has proven that he is average AT BEST, to take the job of a guy who in his only opportunity, hit .331. What's a guy gotta do? I am not saying that Hopper is the long term answer, I back Bruce, but you could do alot worse. (like paying 3 mil for Patterson.)
I saw Patterson play yesterday and in my opinion he isn't bad- But not worth 3 million. I feel the Reds made a bad mistake trading Josh Hamilton because he could have been that extra power hitter once Griffey is done. A lot of people also say that the Reds should get rid of Valentin which I strongly disagree with. While Ross may be a better catcher, Valentin is a better all around player. He's a better hitter especially in the clutch and he can play 1B also. The reds need to get rid of Freel- you don't need to pay a guy over 3 million a year if he's not going to play at least 100-120 games. I think Patterson will be a great asset to the Reds- but 3 million a year I think is overduing it.
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