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John Fay
John Fay has been the Reds beat writer for the Enquirer since 2001. Prior to that, he served in a variety of roles for the Enquirer: backup Reds writer, UC beat writer, backup Bengals writer and as a general assignment reporter. He is a Cincinnati native and a graduate of Elder High School and the University of Dayton.

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Thursday, August 30, 2007

Odd, odd play

The Reds scored two runs on Edwin Encarnacion's bases-loaded single in the fourth.

Wait a miunte. No they didn't.

Adam Dunn was on second. Ken Griffey Jr. on third. Both scored easily. But Dunn missed third base. The Pirates appealed. Matt Morris threw to third. Umpire Chris Guccione signaled out.

Home plate umpire Wally Bell later ruled that Griffey's run did not count either. The play was scored a 1-5 forceout.

Encarnacion got an at-bat but no hit. He also lost two RBI in the ruling.


17 Comments:

at 9:25 PM Anonymous Justin Fernandez said...

Wow! Another disaster game. Mac "overmanaging" the bullpen again. What an awful 7th inning. It's looking as if Mac is not the bullpen manipulating "wiz" that he seemed to be during the winning streak. Majewski, Bray, Burton, you just waste the first two in the 7th alone in a one-run game?

Luck late or a loss. This week is as aggravating as last week was enjoyable.

If it wasn't for Harang it would be a typical Reds big fat losing streak on the heels of a winning streak.

Come on Reds, pull this out. Nice base-running Dunn! The lack of discipline/focus is sinking to NARRON-DAYS level...slowly but surely...proving the point of other posters that the succession of interim managers' "illusions" are perpetuating a vicious cycle.

Manager shopping is SQUARELY on the table as of the 7th inning tonight.

 
at 9:34 PM Anonymous mikec said...

How did Griffey's run not count if he was on third?

 
at 9:40 PM Blogger John Fay said...

The way it was explained to us is it's 1-5 forceout. Dunn is out trying to advance to third. Inning over.

And Justin: You're going inning-by-inning now on the manager, eh?

 
at 10:16 PM Anonymous Justin Fernandez said...

Phillips and A-Gon...great games.

WOW That hustle play by A-Gon to score from first...now THAT is quality baseball.

Griffey with two base-running errors in the 9th was a little off his game.

Whew...in a way this was the best win of the year.

And yes, inning by inning; Mac didn't manage well tonight--what happened to one guy in the 7th, one in the 8th, and one in the 9th (with Bray, Burton, and Weathers?)

VERY NICE. I'd take Phillips over Utley any time.

 
at 10:21 PM Anonymous Justin Fernandez said...

It's also nice to see Valentin continuing to be clutch.

A whole season of this next year would be nice.

 
at 10:31 PM Anonymous Mike said...

That doesn't make sense, if Griffey is on third and makes it home before the play is "dead", the run still counts. Are you saying that the Pirates threw to third before Griffey scored? It would make sense if Griffey was on second, and Dunn on first, and Griffey didn't hit third, but I'm a little lost on this..

 
at 10:40 PM Anonymous Scot said...

The out was because it was a force out - bases loaded. So when Dunn is out at 3rd in a force out situation, no runs score whether or not they crossed the plate before the out occurred.

As to conclusions from this game/week, I think it's becoming more obvious that Dunn needs to go - major defensive liability, can't hit left handed pitching, etc. Aside from starting pitching, this team's biggest weakness is vs. LHP - gotta fix that so Dunn (and potentially others) need to go.

 
at 10:46 PM Blogger Bob said...

Griffey leads us to victory again. Didn't hustle home and Dunn missed third. Griffey blooped one to left and basically did him home run trot to first;therefore preventing him going to second. They bragged on Gonzales hustling home to score. That should not be newsworthy. I was under the assumption that was how the game was played. I thought I saw LaRussa juggling the bullpen; burning up 3 pitchers in one inning.

 
at 10:52 PM Blogger OhioJim said...

Mike
On the force out of Dunn, the play is no differernt than if the 3rd baseman had fielded the ball and stgepped on 3rd to record the out. Because it was a force out it does not matter when Jr crossed the plate.

The question I had and I would guess maybe what Pete was lobbying for was that if time was taken after the play; and, it thus became an appeal play would the run count.

I thought Pete should have played under protest just becasue the play was so unusual that chances were good the umps might have muffed ot.

 
at 11:00 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The bases were loaded making the third out a force play. Dunn (according to the umpire)never reached third base.

It's no different than the thrid baseman stepping on third after fielding a ground ball. Griffey's whereabouts make no difference.

 
at 11:07 PM Blogger Bob said...

Ohio Jim I agree. I've lost my rulebook but I would have played under protest,also. Nothing to lose. The action continued and runs and hit counts if don't make the appeal play. The out didn't occur until after the appeal play.

 
at 11:10 PM Blogger John Fay said...

OhioJim has it right. That's exactly what Pete Mackanin told us after the game.

 
at 11:50 PM Blogger freelancehack said...

Adam Dunn is indeed a defensive liability.

Are we sure he was a highly touted quarterback in Texas? Because his arm is so weak Sid Bream could score on him... from first base.

 
at 12:19 AM Anonymous redifil said...

Another way to understand the odd play/rule is that Dunn — after the appeal was upheld — never reached third base, therefore no other runner can officially advance. Earlier, I was thinking it's a rule that should be changed, but now I'm thinking it makes sense. One way or the other, here's the bottom line for players: TOUCH ALL THE BASES! That way none of us has to worry about it and Eddie E. gets the hit and RBIs he deserves and it's "probably" a much easier win.
P.S. Brandon P. is the freakin' man.

 
at 11:30 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mac did not do anything disgraceful; Let's not overreact. He did overmanage the pen a little in the 7th. However Majewski probably had to come out right there. The issue was that I would have let Bray go ahead and face Bautista leaving Burton to come in clean in the 8th.

Regarding Griffey's poor baserunning, I agree but we all have to realize that he is in Barry Bonds mode these days and it's hard to blame him. Griffey is paid a lot to hit the ball for us and he is an old, injury-prone ballplayer. He had made a surprising amountof great defensive plays this year that I though were no longer in him. You might also want to note that he won this game for us offensively. The lazieness bugs me, but we just have to accept it at this point in his career.

 
at 2:32 PM Blogger Cheviot Sports Authority said...

Why do we have to accept Griffey's laziness and me first attitude? Send him to Seattle (maybe they would take him). He still puts up good numbers, so long as he is playing, but his attitude stinks. The Reds would be much better off without him (look at the money they would save, if nothing else). I am sure with the likes of Jay Bruce, Jeff Keppinger, Norris Hopper, Joey Votto and Jorge Cantu someone could step in and replace Jr's numbers and maybe even provide a little enthusiasm and a winning attitude. Someone please take Junior. I am sure there is no one beating down the door to get him but let us hope.

 
at 2:36 AM Anonymous George Hale said...

Dunn's faux pas at third is covered under rule 7.12. Remember, the bases were loaded and Dunn's out on appeal is the third out. Rule 7.12: Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

 
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