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Reds Insider
From news of the day to news of the weird, John Fay provides a glimpse of what it’s like to cover the Cincinnati Reds

John Fay
John Fay has been the Reds beat writer for the Enquirer since 2001. Prior to that, he served in a variety of roles for the Enquirer: backup Reds writer, UC beat writer, backup Bengals writer and as a general assignment reporter. He is a Cincinnati native and a graduate of Elder High School and the University of Dayton.

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Saturday, December 22, 2007

Implications of the Hamilton trade

Just finished my Sunday Insider for the paper -- how about those Bearcats, by the way? -- the gist of the Insider is the odds of the Reds getting Erik Bedard are not good in the wake of Josh Hamilton trade.

Baltimore has backed off the insistence that Jay Bruce be in the deal. But the Orioles want three top prospects. That probably means Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto and Joey Votto. The Reds probably aren't going to do that.

I can see why. If Bedard walks after two years, the trade would be a disaster if even two of the three panned out.

I still think the Reds will add a veteran starter, just not one in Bedard's class.


137 Comments:

at 5:39 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Umm, if the Reds still had Hamilton, maybe they would have three prospects to put in the deal, Josh, Joey and one of the pitchers.

 
at 5:39 PM Blogger cincikid said...

I kinda thought that if the Reds offered a decent and fair trade the O's would ask for the bank. Which is what O's GM has been saying since the winter meetings. He will not trade Bedard unless he is blown away. I just wander, now that Krivsky's plan of landing a top of a rotation pitcher is now dwindling, if he will have to go back to Castellini and ask for some more money to spend on a free agent pitcher? Oh well, Cameron's right handed bat would now look nice in CF if Bruce doesn't have a awesome Spring. And now we have to try to find lightning in a bottle with a pitcher like, Colon, Prior, Jennings, Leiber. It should be interesting.

 
at 5:49 PM Blogger redbeard said...

Any guess as to who the veteran starting pitcher might be? It really seems like Jon Leiber is about the only name I've heard that could be at all appealing.

Bailey, Volquez, Cueto, and Maloney certainly form a very nice group of potential future starters. If two of them can work out at all this season the starting rotation will be much better than it was last season.

John, with the current roster of pitchers, do you think there is some shot that the rotation could be Harang, Arroyo, (and then 3 of these 5 -- Bailey, Belisle, Volquez, Cueto, Maloney)?

What would be your guess as to who the veteran pitcher the Reds might go after and is a trade still possible for an established starter (if so what package do you think the Reds will have to put together to get that starter?)

--Redbeard

 
at 5:57 PM Anonymous wiseguy said...

Well the bottom line is these are all prospects, even Volquez but I like our odds with what we have now. I can't see dealing away our top three for probably two years of Bedard. Let's just hope these guys pan out. If not we can all look back in two years and bash the Kriv Dawg. (Who really isn't as bad as some think)

 
at 6:18 PM Blogger Dave from Louisville said...

I do not think you can give up 2 MLB ready pitchers for Bedard. That price is too high for me. I think a veteren Lieber type could be great. Our MLB ready starting pitching is young but there is really alot of upside there. At least 2 of Belisle, Bailey, Cueto, Maloney, and EV will step up and contribute major quality innings step year.

 
at 6:41 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why not one of bailey or cueto/stubbs/3rd prospect for blanton?

 
at 7:08 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I would love to have Bedard, someone needs to send a memo to baltimore they sucked in the past, sucked with Bedard and will continue to suck in the future. Bailey and anyone else in our organizational top 5 is unacceptable. Tell Baltimore they can embarass themselves in the AL East with Tampa to figure out who can lose 100! We now have 5 legit top tier ready prospects and the REDS are sitting in the drivers seat. I want to win in 2008 but Im giddy over our prospects the next 5 years. Lets not lose perspective. The last few years we were talking about Dave William, Ramon Ortiz,Jimmie Anderson, and Jimmy Haynes!!!!!

 
at 7:12 PM Blogger scooby said...

Let me first say i am a life long Reds fan, But this trade is horrible, we are getting a "top pitching prospect" and a 5'7" soft tosser to " fill in minor league pitching" (Krivsky's words) from a team that is notroious for horrid pitching and Vloquez couldn't even crack their rotation?? you can't tell me the Reds even tried to get Willis and Miggy Cabrera from the marlins... how huge of an upgrade is that for us if we get those two and give up Hamilton, Homer, Edwin and some other prospect Willis and Cabrerra are both young 24 & 25 and we could lock them up if Castellini opens his purse strings, not to mention there had to be something else out there from another team known for pitching developement that we could have gotten for just Hamilton a guy who showed he could play at a high level in the majors, why not a package of Hamilton and some one for Kazmir in tampa or even Hamilton for Lincecom or Daniel Cabrerra in Baltimore heck atr least Daniel Cabrerra is established as a major leaguer, this is no different than the Casey for Dave anderson trade or Boone for Clausen and where are Anderson and Clausen now??? I don't think Anderson is even in baseball now, they let Cantu go to pick up a AA pitcher with a 7.00+ ERA who they have to keep on the majorleague roster and then make this trade, why haven't they locked up Brandon Phillips to a long term yet?? he gets to arbitration how much you think he is going to get awarded?? the Reds are reminding me of the Bengals when they traded down to take Chris Perry instead of Stephen Jackson.. they are blowing smoke about these trades they are bad trades wait and see wake up Reds fans i have stop drinking their Kool aide there were other better options out there i am sure of it!!

 
at 7:22 PM Blogger cincikid said...

With Blanton, you are paying for a name and not the product. Cueto or Bailey is every bit as likely to put up the same numbers as Blanton for the Reds.

 
at 7:24 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I didn't realize Volquez had already seen major league time in 3 seasons. The general rule of thumb is, if a player doesn't spend a full year in the majors by his fourth year, he'll never make it. Or at least not for very long (see Willie Greene).

So send Volquez, Cueto and Stubbs to Baltimore for Bedard. If they can get Chad Bradford in the deal, give them Coffey as well.

 
at 7:30 PM Anonymous firefly118 said...

Thought I would jump over on this one! I believe the Bedard deal is done now, and it is our fault. If we would have just sent Bruce and Bailey over, we would be in good shape. This Hamilton thing has really put us behind the 8 ball, and our options are nill. Blanton would be an o.k fit, but he is not at the level of a #1 or #2 guy, and not sure about a #3. So no way would I trade all that for him, and now we can't manuever. We are putting all of our stock into an unproven prospect in CF, hope that Bailey is better than last year, and Cueto lives up to the hype. I hope so, but if it doesn't where are we at then? Griffey (great hall of fame player whom I love) is done, I mean a few average years left, but in baseball years he is bench worthy at best. Dunn will be 50-50 whether he is even here after 08', would you want to be. Freel and Hopper???? Now for the pitching, Harang is awesome and would have been a Cy Young winner on several other teams, but every horse wears down. Arroyo is decent, but in GABP hitters have him figured out by mid-season. Bailey and Cueto??? I hope I am wrong, but who ever the next GM is in 09' will have to try and fix it...

 
at 8:11 PM Anonymous BigRedMachine said...

If what John says is right it looks like we're just going to have to hope for the best. I think the Bedard trade could have made us the best team in the central, but this will just be the more exciting version. If we can build a winning team just with our prospects that will be the most exciting and unlikely thing that has happened in recent Reds history. Of course at this point how people will perform is just a guess, Bedard or the prospects, but I'm hoping for the best and am retaining optimism.

 
at 8:47 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reds fans are certifiably the most ignorant incompetent sports fans on the planet. Its embarassing to read this blog. I guess people's wives are reading and typing for them. I love the commentary on "the unproven" Jay Bruce.....the number one prospect on planet Earth.... as these GED'ers bemoan the loss of a drug addict who's "proven" all of 90 games the last 5 years between 3 week diarrhea episodes and pulled hammies....not to mention the biggest skeleton in his closet...Yeah, Hamilton is way more proven than Bruce. Shut up morons and get a job so your wife doesnt have to work so damn hard to subsidize your pathetic existence.

 
at 8:48 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

get soem perspective. This is an awesome move. The reds can never afford quality veteran pitchers for th elong term. The only chance to win is to get young pitching talent from the minors and hope they develop and you control their rights for a while. Get some perspective and realize that the K man has made some great moves!!! This puts the reds in the drivers seat for years to come!!!

 
at 8:59 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why wont we trade Alex Gonzalez??? He does not get on base and Keppinger is a better option to start when you take into account the offense. Anyone who watched Reds baseball knows that the 7-8-9 hitters (AGon, Ross, and pitcher) were practically automatic outs and constantly stalled the offense. I know that common sense says that 7-8-9 hitters are your worse ones but with Kepp batting 1 or 2 that pushes EE to 7 and the lineup looks better by a large amount. It is so obvious to me that I have been surprised for months that Krivsky wants to keep him. KRIVSKY: TRADE GONZALEZ please.

Kevin

 
at 9:29 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

you guys crack me up. the reds are awful, and you're a little high on your prospects. there is a reason baltimore didn't trade bedard, they don't think your prospects are any good. bedard was in the lead for cy young before he got hurt, and will probably win the cy young next year. no one wants to play in ohio!!

 
at 9:42 PM Blogger scooby said...

I don't agree with some of the other posters, you hang on to "prospects" and pass on established stars of the same age it makes us look like buffoons, according to Ranger publications the Danks kid a lefty or the Hurley kid are their best pitching prospects, Volquez ranks below both of them prospect wise # 3 according to baseball america, Danny Ray Herrera doesn't rank anywhere in their prospect rankings in a pitching poor organization throws 80+ and has "good Control" and his stature varies from 5'6" 145 pounds to 5'8" come on!! Talk about giving away the farm for nothing!! the Dave Anderson ghost keeps coming to mind here even tho it was O'brien and notthe Kriv Dog who made that trade.. it wasn't like Hamilton was Jose guillen and heck we got Harang for Guillen!!
Krivski couldn't even get one of the top feilding prospects thrown in the deal like catcher Taylor Teagarden or shortstop Joaquin Arias , heck Volquez was projected as the Rangers #4 starter behind Danks, Hurley, and 975 year old Kevin Millwood, Yes we need pitching but established servicable guys not third teir prospects for a guy who is a top teir prospect who has established he can play up in the bigs Hamilton showed that we don't know about Bruce in the Bigs and Bailey is not ready or even close according to whispers of other organizations scouts!! come on people check your stats and sources before you speak.. what do you think Mr. Fay??

 
at 9:57 PM Blogger Brian said...

Competition is a wonderful thing...and there's gonna be a ton of it going on between Bailey/Volquez/Cueto/Maloney/Belisle. That's gonna do nothing but help. I also don't think they're done. I could still see them bring in somebody like Leiber or Prior.

 
at 10:15 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like the trade. While I will miss Hamilton, who knows if he would have ever been healthy for a full season. Best of luck to him in Texas and hopefully one of the two pitchers obtained from Texas will make an impact next year.

John: on a side note, I noticed that the Cleveland Indians signed Aaron Herr to a minor league contract today. When did the Reds ever let him go? He put up pretty good numbers last year. Not that he was going to be a superstar here, but was certainly worth a shot as a utility infielder. Any thoughts?

 
at 10:20 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

someone needs to go tell baltimore that since they're going to stink anyway, they should be HAPPY with our 97th, 98th, and 99th best prospects. they should be happy to get ANYONE that has the classy red in their blood. give us bedard for nothin.

 
at 10:29 PM Anonymous wiseguy said...

I thought this...and I thought that...If we offered this.....or if we offered that....the Orioles would take it. Are you all kidding me? Does anyone really know what was offered? Is there anyone out there that would really think the Orioles would take what you all believe should have been offered? Judging from what the A's got for Haren, we would have probably depleted our whole farm system to get 2 years of Bedard. No one out there knows what has gone on behind the scenes. Hamilton's got talent but he is a ticking time bomb (See Daryl Strawberry). Let's go with what we have and wait till June. If we need to trade then, let's do it but for now I still like our odds.

 
at 11:21 PM Anonymous bRIANhghROBERTS said...

no one wants to play in Ohio? right and the free agents are flocking to maryland, orioles are a door mat, have been and will be, they are fully commited to a fire sale at this point and most probably, to angelos's shagrin have over played there hand with bedard...m's got silva, dodgers got the japanese inport, turn back the clock 2 weeks and the O's were in the drivers seat, now...every contender for bedard has seemingly moved on and what did the o's get...well just a whole lot of ink in the mitchell report. Every organization over values their prospects, say what u will about the young pitchers but EVERYONE who knows baseball knows that the reds have a great stable of top tier prospects, and what has bedard proven? he's been an "ace " for not even 2 full seasons and can't seem to stay healthy, a lefty with great stuff to be sure, better than dan haren...absolutly not, worth as much...absolulty no...O's fans are insane if they think they are going to get anything better than one legit prospects and change ala haren trade. Reds have a bright future, loads of young talent, a weak division and the best prospect in the game, orioles u have...hmmm well i guess for now erik bedard and a bevy of HGH and thats about it...Mc Fail has lost all suitors with his rediculous demands, and we over value, get lost moron

 
at 11:32 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting quote from Jamey Newburg on The Newburg Report on the Texas Rangers after the Hamilton-Volquez trade.

"By now you might be asking yourself the same question that dogs me about this trade: Why is Cincinnati doing this?

We all know the promise that Volquez has. But the bottom line, from a Reds standpoint, is they're trading a potential star who makes the league minimum and is under club control for five more years in exchange for a pitcher who is 3-11, 7.20 in the big leagues. Does that make sense?

….

Or is Volquez a possibility to be spun to Baltimore in a package for Bedard? If that happens, good. I'd love to see Bedard out of the American League, and particularly not in Seattle."

.....

Obviously, a writer who understands the value of Erik Bedard.

 
at 12:03 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

the guy who posted at 10:20 is an idiot. The reds don't even have a pitcher on their roster who would cut it in the american league, case in point arroyo, who got run out. The reds are dumb if they dont pony up for bedard. Even if they did win the NL somehow, their pitching would get crushed in a world series against the AL

 
at 12:15 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Os are touting Bedard as an ace on the same level as Santana. He's not that good, yet. They are foolish to think they can get top prospects for a guy who's still pretty unproven. WK has the chips to play and is doing a great job holding his hand untill just the right time. And to that guy who said to trade Alex Gon is on crack! His value is lower than its ever been. What an idiot

 
at 12:19 AM Blogger sabo said...

Scooby, it was Dave Williams, not Dave Anderson. The Marlins recieved two of the top 10 prospects in baseball, plus some more for Cabrera and Willis. It would've taken Bailey and Bruce, plus some of the others, Cueto, Votto, Stubbs, Maloney, Juan Francisco. Willis just recieved a 3 year 30 million dollar extension, and Cabrera will absolutely break the bank. Too much in both players and money fro the Reds to give up.

 
at 12:23 AM Blogger Ol' Timey Redsfan said...

First off all you wantabee G.M.s you should know that trades are a two way street and you should stop looking at the MLB like it your fantasy team. Second, what's all the we??? As in now we can't do this or trade him, uh you are fans not the Reds team. Fans don't have a say in what the major league team does or doesn't do. You don't play the game, manage, or own the team. You negative posters are a pain to read. Everything is always bad, never any positives. Boring!!

As for you cowardly Annonymous posters, if you don't have the guts to put your name behide what you write, you shouldn't write it.

This Blog should follow other Blog lead and do away with Annonymous posters.

 
at 12:37 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jeez, Scooby...anger issues?

At the very least, if you want to give your seathing, sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing rants an air of credibility, you could get the names of mediocre players right.

It was Dave WILLIAMS, not "Anderson".

If the real Scooby was as angry as you, he would have been put down by animal control!

 
at 12:37 AM Anonymous Brendan T. said...

Scooby, you obviously are clueless that trades are a two-way deal. Hamilton and someone for Kazmir???? Hamilton and NO ONE on the Reds would get us Kazmir. How much do you think Hamilton and his 19 career HR's are worth exactly?

 
at 1:48 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cincy is the whipping boy of the NL Central. Bedard has a partial no-trade clause and would never come to Cincinnati in his right mind. Harang is the only decent pitcher on the roster and they have a manager who is a Cubs reject. Watch the Cubs wins the Central again this year and ever team in the NL whip the Reds. Sorry Reds fans, just stating a fact. You won't get Bedard and will not win anything with a 2-3-4 punch staring Arroyo, Bailey and Volquez. Just not going to happen.

 
at 2:04 AM Blogger Ol' Timey Redsfan said...

Anonymous 12:03, you need to catch a clue. No Reds pitcher could cut in the A.L.? I beg to differ, Harang would do just fine in the A.L. and Arroyo was not exactly run out of town. As I remember it he was an important cog in the Boston W.S. win. Just how old are you anyway, 13? Why don't you worry about Baltimore and let us Reds fans worry about Cincinnati?

 
at 8:09 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Old Timey Reds Fan...

I would suggest to you that your screen name is not your real name ..please dont lecture us on courage

Some are fans are reasonably negative and I can appreciate this..ths team has not been very good for a very long time

After reviewing many articles on the 2 pitchers we received...one simply is not very good ...the other has some potential

And yet Ken Griffey remains on our team eating salary... striking out and we trade a great young ballplayer like Hamilton.

Wayne certainly understands the fan base and wayne knows pitching...Yeah right.

 
at 8:25 AM Blogger JimmyD said...

Brenden T. and wiseman are the only ones on here with any reason or knowledge of baseball. Hamilton's value is nowhere near what you others think it is. Yes the Rays blew it by exposing him in Rule 5 draft, but he's still an OF with 19 HRs and 47 RBIs in only 90 MLB games. That's it. Nothing more. I wouldn't trade Bruce, Votto, or Cueto for Bedard. He's only got two years and then he's GONE. What if he got hurt. Now, we're stock piling pitching prospects. Will they all pan out, no way, but if just two of them do, then we're set. Krivsky should sign veteran lefty to fill out the starting rotation and then this team is poised to contend.
Scooby, take a scooby snack and chill out.

 
at 8:59 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's easier for position players to burst on the scene and I beleive Bruce and particularly Votto wil follow Ryan Braun, Hanley Ramirez,Hunter Pence, Troy Tulowitzki et al as BA top 50 guys who didnt miss a step in their rookie years.Votto and Bruce are superstars with draft/development pedigrees to prove it. Pitchers take time....look at Aaron Harang, Johan Santana, BRandon Webb, and Dan HAren- they were all developing at 24....we got harang for ose Guillen!! I want Bedard but Krivsky needs to do whats in the best interests of the organization for 2008 and beyond. Right now, beyond looks really good and the price tag cant be too high.

 
at 9:22 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ol Timey Redsfan, yeah, you list your name. Genius...

Hamilton was cheap and under club control for five more years and the two Texas pitchers are unproven commodities but the Reds are a desperate team with Harang and ten little question marks for the starting rotation.

Arroyo is mediocre at best, Bailey and Cueto complete unknowns as to how fast they turn their potential into results, same for the Texas Two.

There's almost no pitching available, Krivsky rolled the dice, didn't fritter away our younger stars-in-the-making like Votto, Keppinger, and Bruce (the three we really need to keep) and the only thing to criticize is that if Krivsky did not try to get a second prospect for Hamilton.

But why would Texas part with anyone else? They knew they had the leverage over Cincy in this deal.

While I doubt Hamilton is a Darryl Strawberry-type risk, he does carry the burden of "ALL-EVERYTHING" with him. IF he hits .300 and 40 HRs in the tiny Rangers stadium, well, good for the Rangers. The Reds had no choice but to trade someone good for pitching prospects.

No Japanese and no Dominicans brought up through the farm system highlight just how incompetent Bob Castellini remains as an owner though. He's the Mike Brown of baseball (just wait and see).

All that Dusty Baker $$$$ should have been saved and put towards purchasing a free-agent pitcher.

Think the O's don't want cash? They sure as hell don't want any arms on this joke of a staff!

Come on, Bob, get rid of steroid-pizza boy Stanton, will ya? What the heck is the delay? You can borrow Troy Blackburn to litigate the resulting law suit, it's not like he has anything productive to do for the next five months!

 
at 9:50 AM Anonymous redfuture said...

The Reds and MLB in general must place a premium on the value of competition for spots. It must be that the presense of Volquez along with Maloney and to a certain extent Valenzuela cause pitchers like Bailey & Cueto to focus more and to implement coaching ideas more readily. Perhaps it even improves Belisle's outcome. If that's true and it causes their ERAs to be a 1/4 of a run better maybe its worth it. However observing the Hamilton/Volquez trade in a vaccuum it seems ludicrous to me. I don't believe for a minute that Josh will spend more than your average amount of time on DLs. He is a superior CF defender with awesome power at the plate who can clear the opposite field fence with a flick of his wrists. I think he wore down a bit last year because he practiced hard all winter long the year before with the Narrons to even have a shot at what he accomplished. This winter I'm sure he much more relaxed and will be much fresher going into the year. He's likely to put up Texiera-type numbers in Texas. What will he be worth then? And why couldn't the Reds get catcher Gerald Laird as part of that deal?

 
at 10:04 AM Anonymous anti-media said...

Cluless Kriv. has been a disaster...look at his record. Give away a 5 tool guy for potential get real,this sucks !!WAKE UP CINCY----FIRE KRIVSKY

 
at 10:14 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I realize cincinatti fans aren't considered to be among the most knowledgable, so let me enlighten you. Andy McPhail is asking the going rate for one of the top 3 pitchers in the majors. A prospect is a prospect because he hasn't proven anything.I understand that it is Christmas time, but we are not going to give you Bedard. If we don't find Bruce in are stocking, you won't find Erik Bedard under your tree. So enjoy second place and no playoffs.

 
at 10:33 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Got to agree with Cincikid, The O's were looking for the motherload of prospects. Whos' to say what they actually asked for?

I would imagine that the Reds offered a few different packages that they thought was fair and the O's wanted more. And probably involved everyone except Bruce. I have no problem with the Reds not giving up on him. would the Reds been better off next year with Bedard probably. But would the better off in a few years with Bedard,probably not. And yes, I'm just guessing on that like the rest of you.

We haven't gotten Bedard and I probably don't think we will. So lets move on and quit kickin' a dead horse.

Ol'Timey I would have my name up if i had any tech skills.
Woody

 
at 10:34 AM Anonymous Dunn Deal said...

Krivsky has done a masterful job this offseason. Closer? Done. More pitching depth? Done. Excess outfield inventory reduced? Done. Trading Votto would be a huge mistake. He looked tremendously polished last fall. Will anyone remember Scott Hatteberg or Jorge Cant[ch]u[seeimoverrated] after Votto takes over at 1B and starts hitting the cover off the ball? No. The thing I can't understand in the Bedard discussion is no one, including the Reds' braintrust, seem willing to move Adam "One and" Dunn or Here-Today-Gonzo-Tomorrow? Dunn will never be a plus outfielder or consistently hit well with runners in scoring position, and Gonzo is not the gold glover he was advertised to be. I'd much rather lose Dunn or Gonzo than Bailey and Cueto.

Merry Xmas! Go Reds!!

 
at 10:41 AM Anonymous mikec said...

scooby as many others pointed out already, you don't have a clue.

First, why would the Reds need Cabrera? He'd be an upgrade over Encarnacion sure, but he'd cost major prospects to get AND he's going to break the bank.

Willis had a horrible year last year. His numbers are similar to Matt Belisle's last year.

And who did the Tigers give up to get them? Two of the top 10 prospects in baseball. The equivlant of Bruce and Bailey AND four other good prospects.

So to get those two the Reds would have a) paid them lots of money and b) given up the following: Bruce, Bailey, Maloney, Stubbs, Chris Dickerson, and someone like Sam Lecure.

 
at 11:37 AM Blogger Hugh D. Pohl said...

5 tools? I count at least 5 tools posting on here.

OK, maybe only 2 or 3, but you get the picture.

 
at 12:11 PM Anonymous doncardo said...

Hamilton may have had 90 good games, but to get a pair live arms for an outfielder is a deal this team needs to make to be a competitor. Why not sign Livan Hernandez, he's not that old, a former World Series MVP, he responds to pennant pressure well, and probably is not too expensive. He would make a great no 3 in this staff.

Then you can maybe deal Votto, Volquez and Bailey to get Bedard and have a real 4 man staff: Harang, Arroyo, Bedard and Hernandez, with Cueto to possibly take the place of Bedard over time.

Do you think the O's have any interest in Encarnacion or Gonzales?

 
at 12:22 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Dunn Deal, Fay has written this before but many seem to forget that in picking up Adam Dunn's option, there's a provision that gives him full no-trade protection until the middle of June I think. You can thank previous ownership for that contract.

On a separate note, how come no one talks about signing Freddy Garcia as a free agent pitcher? I know he's coming off arm surgery, but he would fill the need of a veteran starter and his track record is much better than Jon Leiber, Josh Fogg, etc.

 
at 12:38 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The one thing that Reds need and is always a need of is pitching. Losing Hamilton is not the end of the world, we have great talent behind him. I would not lock Ryan Freel in center field for opening day. I would let Jay Bruce or Norris Hopper try for it. Hopper is the lead off man we need, does all the "little things" and is quick. If I am not mistaking that plays into what Dusty wants and needs. Hop and BP would compliment each other big time in the 1 and 2 slot, with the heavy hitters behind him and then Kepp waiting in the 5 or 6 slot.

We have the right ingredients to have a successful year, they just have to put it together and keep it rolling. Hopefully Dusty can start hot and keep them hot. For the last few years that seems to be our MO, start hot and fizzle in the middle and fall off in the end. Times are changing and the Big Red Machine will be back in 2008. GO REDS!!

 
at 12:41 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

One thing I know for sure for the 08 season, the ticket department has 4 more season tickets to sell. I'm not renewing my tickets for next year. I decided not to renew long before the Hamilton trade however it does give me another reason why it was a good decision.

 
at 1:24 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all you idiots from Baltimore need to worry about your own horrible team. The Reds ain't giving you the future. And the Cubs fans here well when was the last time you won a WS 100years? Yea Chicago is a Real winner Barf, Barf!

 
at 3:01 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

gotta love it when a guy hollers about getting danks from rangers when he pitched 26 games for the white sox last year.
-bobcat

 
at 3:46 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

everyone loves josh hamilton, but did you watch many games last year? he has talent but he is overrated. he can't hit a lefty to save his life. on top of that he is not gonna be able to stay healthy because of his prior drug use. i am very happy that they traded him but i wish they could have gotten a big league pitcher for him. hopefully some of these young pitchers pan out and we will have a solid rotation.

 
at 3:54 PM Blogger Ron said...

As far as I am concerned, the Oreo's can keep Bedard if Cueto & Bruce have to be included. Bedard has never made it past 200 innings and until this past season has been mediocre at best. I offer the O's Maloney, Encarnacion & Stubbs ... take it or leave it. I would rather lose now and build for '09 than morgage the future for two years of Bedard.

 
at 6:59 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ano 10;14,
Are you an O's fan talking about playoffs? Don't you watch your team? Remember the thumping you took from the Rangers?

Check back when you guys get a major league team.

 
at 7:04 PM Blogger Dave from Louisville said...

John - You have my vote for banning anonymous posters.

 
at 7:23 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think the O's want Votto. He's bascially a 1B, and Angelos over there wants desperately to bid on Texiera next year. He wants outfielders, a SS and pitchers. This makes it difficult to beleive Cinci can now make a deal with BAL. Trading Hamilton for a non-top 5 Texas prospect is just perplexing to me. I've already reconciled myself that

Cinci has no chance at Bedard with the Hamilton trade which bugs me because I would have liked to see Griffey and Dunn get a shot at the playoffs before they're done. Now, it looks like a real longshot with the Cubs signing Fukodome and us trading Hamilton. We signed a releiver. THat's good, but this pretty much offsets that, and without Bedard I just don't think we'll seriously compete. Maybe in 2010.

 
at 7:32 PM Blogger Phill said...

I've been trying to cutback on reading this blog's comment section but it's just insane. Like a trainwreck of stupidity that I can't stop reading.

Hamilton at this stage is just as unproven as Bruce and much older. Alex Gonzalez doesn't have a lot of trade value. Keppinger had one hot month and then for the rest of the season slowly sank back down to reality. Why is it that he should get a starting short stop job again? Dunn can't be moved and probably won't be. The most surprising thing about Adam Dunn is that he seems to have nothing but love for the Reds and this city and all he gets is crapped on by people constantly...because he isn't Pete Rose incarnate.

My take on the Hamilton trade is just this...wait to see what happens before condemning either team about what was given. I loved the Josh Hamilton story, it's a great thing but frankly if the trade pans out how Krivsky thinks it will I'm for it. I'm extremely intrigued to see how this team as it is(position player wise) would do.

 
at 11:40 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Biggest mistake the Reds can do now after trading Hamilton, and I mean this mistake would cost the Reds for a decade to come would be to trade Joey Votto or Jay Bruce. Griffey is going to be 38 years old, Hatteberg is 37. Bruce and Votto are going to be huge stars if not superstars and I like our young pitching in Bailey, Cueto, Volquez and Maloney. Sign a veteran, a la Jon Lieber or Livan Hernandez and the Reds will be very respectable in 2008. Dominating in 2009.

 
at 9:05 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dunn Deal

we got a closer..thats it..The two pitchers..one has potential..the other has been terribly inconsistent.

As far as excess outfielders.. we moved the wrong one. You still have Ken Griffey that should have retired 5 years ago and Adam Dunn that cant hit with runners on base and is a terrible defensive outfielder.

You are getting off on the fact we picked up this closer ( for 15 million too much by the way) and you think everything is ok...too funny

Krivsky has picked up an overpriced 32 year old closer and let a potential All Star outfielder go.. Nothing masterful about that dude

Use your head and dont let emotion rule your day

 
at 9:26 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Reds outfield in 2008 will be the worse defense in the n.l. Even the best pitching will have higher e.r.a. Why not trade JR. not Hamilton.At least he won't be hobbling around and bouncing singles off the right field wall.

 
at 9:44 AM Anonymous mikec said...

I like Hamilton, don't get me wrong. But just look at history folks. First, Hamilton has a TON of issues. Both mental and physical. He's a bigger risk than Volquez any day.

Second, remember Wily Mo in 2004. Pretty similar stats: 336 ABs, 66 RBIs, hit .259.

Everyone saw a world of potential and said, man if he could just play a full year he's a 40 HR 100 RBI guy.

Well, he STILL doesn't have a season with more than 336 ABs. He still has a hole in his swing. He still can't play defense.

Hamilton had a great season when he played. But he was hurt. And the league will adjust to him to some degree. He's a smart kid. He may adjust with the league, but that's a risk too.

Bruce is younger, better defensively, quicker and has a ton fewer question marks.

And don't you think if other teams valued Hamilton higher Wayne would have gotten more for him? You think Krivsky thinks man the guy I want to get is Edinson Volquez. He'll make or break our team.

No, he said I've got to deal Hamilton to get some pitching. Hamilton is the most expendable, valuable (cause no one wants Griffey and Freel folks and Dunn can't be traded until June) trading chip. So he shopped Hamilton around and Volquez is better than the Cubs Sean Marshall, so that's who he got.

 
at 9:49 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

FYI,Just was trolling through the Post reds blog and came across some interesting comments made by Mr. Redleg.

Apparently he thinks only the "dumbest of the dumb Reds fans" post here on John's site.

Apparently most of us are either on drugs or "Forrest Gump". I usually can disregard his attacks on people, but I think he's gone a bit too far.

I have come to enjoy this blog because it sticks to the point of baseball talk. I truly enjoy everyone's view regardless if I agree or don't.

I can only hope that his opinion of this blog is not shared by most of you.

Woody

 
at 10:59 AM Blogger scooby said...

I never said Hamilton was the next coming of the Babe and just because i got Dave Williams last name wrong doesn't mean i was not right on the trade being horrible,
what i did say is that the Rangers Ripped us there were others that were available Danks, Hurley or even Volquez and Teagarden ( a catcher we cold sorely use) or ARIas ( a SS compared to Hanley Ramirez) instead of the soft tossing 5'6" Herrara "to bolster our minor league pitching" (Krivdawg quote) if you can't get top quality in return for what your offering then you don't make the trade with that organization right... isn't that the excuse we are using for not trading our "prospects"???

So let me get this right from all the geniouses out there... Hamilton, who showed he could play at a high level nearly allstar after a 4 year layoff was not worth more than a minor leauge pitcher who ranks #4 in the rangers organization prospect wise and not in the top 50 according to baseball america, a
5'6" soft tosser who isn't even showing up on a prospect list.. no wonder we lose.

You don't trade establised players with upsisdes for "prospects" who haven't proven a thing in the big leagues, just like you don't draft 1st rounders to be back ups or 3rd down backs....

Or is it only the Reds who think Propects are worth more than guys who have the "stats on the back of their baseball cards" consistantly...

I mean using some of you posters on here rationale we should get Pujols for Votto or Peavey for Bruce... come on this was a bad trade no way to spin it or blow more smoke... Krivski got hosed on this one.. why we may never know!!

 
at 11:09 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Phil... please refrain from name calling.. sorta hypocritical

Hamilton is not unproven while Bruce is completely unproven

Do you remember Brandon Larson the hitting phenom that "could not miss"?

Keppingers insertion changed the entire makeup of this team..we need more ballplayers like him

Phil calm down its Xmas no need top get upset

 
at 11:10 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I concur Anon 1140, I'd like to see Livan here, although his price would tick the fan base off for what he's likely to produce, a mid to high 4's era. I honestly think Belile (sp?) deserves a clean shot at 3 this year. We'll see.

As for Wayne, I trust his moves, although I think he needs this pitching move to work desperately. The general fan base is tough on him as it is after the Kearns trade, which hasn't actually hurt at all. I prefer to look to the Guardado pickup, Arroyo trade, Burton pick, etc., but some can't see the reality of what he's putting together.

Also, I'm Anon b/c I'm too lazy to find my password. : )

Jon

 
at 11:25 AM Blogger scooby said...

Just another question to ponder Sabo and others, are we better with Bailey and votto etc. or with Cabrerra and Willis??? I may have gotten Dave William last name wrong but i guarantee we are at least a wild card contender with those two on our team, where do we finish with Votto, Bruce Homer, Maloney and Ceuto if we give of 3 of them to get some one of Cabrerra and Willi's caliber where are we?? Willis and Cabrerra are the same age or close as those we are hanging on to so dearly... what do the "backs of their baseball cards" say??

remember when the Reds held onto the "crown Jewels" of Kal Daniels, Kurt Stillwell, Barry Larkin which one turned out??? Some of the offers they got for those guys were darn good and would have improved the team.

The Reds have had histories of this before anyone remember Paul Householder?? Jeff Jones??? Frank Pastore?? Paul Moskow??Brett Tomko?? Willie Green?? Nick Esasky?? Danny Dreesen whom was so good in the minors we traded Tony Perez?? the Bong kid we got from Atlanta??

Problem is we have accepted excuses for losing from our sports teams for so long... people may not like to hear this but winners go about doing things to win, losers make excuses and poor choices that keep them losing... unfortunately both the Reds and Bengals fall into the loser category.

 
at 12:12 PM Anonymous Dennis in Fairfield said...

Enough is enough. I agree with Dave from Louisville. Too many anonymous posters. Most don't have anything positive to say, only negatives. Most don't know what they are talking about, but think that if they complain enough, people will think they should be in Krivsky's office. Sorry guys, but if you are anonymous, learn how to spell, punctuate and use capital letters. Then maybe you can apply for Krivky's job.

 
at 1:01 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dennis in Fairfield..Does using a name make you more credible than anyone else?

So Mikec..you have become a doctor and have the inside scoop on Hamilton's injuries?

Lets see..we have Ken Griffey at 12 million a year Mikec and he has missed about 62% of the games over the past 9 years

Mikec..Bruce has never played a major league game and for you to suggest he is better than Hamilton is ludicrous. defensively..by the way..Hamilton would blow Bruce away.

Mikec and Dennis..i don't think anon contributors are that negative..I think they are realistic.

You and some others on here remind me of the Bengals fans of many years ago. Get an overpaid closer and trade for some pitching that the woeful Texas rangers let go...all problems solved.. Oh Please..

I know one thing Dennis..this club has been terrible over the course of the last 15-16 years and I am not going to get excited until I see results. You cant deal with that fact ..get over it

 
at 2:09 PM Blogger Phill said...

Anon at 11:09 AM,

I don't believe I was being hypocritical whatsoever with my first comment.

Hamilton played what? 90 games? Only started in 70 or so of them.

He proved only a couple things.He can hit the ball against righties but looked pretty clueless against lefties...something the Reds really don't need more of. He had tremendous speed but lacked a feel for baserunning. So he wasn't truly a major on-base threat for the pitcher.He proved that he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. He went from one injury to the next and non of them seemingly related to each other. What good is talent when it's on the DL? If Hamilton can stay healthy then yes he'll probably go on to have some great years. He really just isn't what the Reds need. A power hitting lefty who can't stay healthy...sounds like somebody who already plays right field if you ask me.

With all that said, I liked Hamilton and wish him the best of luck in Texas.

There's just as many ifs when comparing Hamilton AND Bruce. Bruce is 5 or 6, I can't remember, years younger than Josh. He doesn't have a checkered history with off-field problems and injury. He's just as highly touted as Josh Hamilton was. If he fails? Then so be it but you have to risk it especially when it involves acquiring young pitchers who are either MLB-ready or extremely close to MLB-ready. It has really set-up the team for the future even more but could still give them a chance in 08.

I agree with you on needing more players like Keppinger in that we need more right handed hitters who can hit for a good average. However I'd rather see a full year of Alex Gonzalez without the off the field distractions with his family before hollering for Keppinger to get a starting position.

and lastly, I am relaxed man. This is just the internet.

 
at 3:03 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Phil merry xmas man stay relaxed

I would refer you to your last post where you used the word "touted". Big difference between being touted and actually playing at the major league level.

Hamilton was out of baseball for what 3 full years. You seem to think hes a liabilty injury wise. I seem to think what he did was rather remarkable. He is the one guy you want to give a complete offseason and another playing year before drawing any conclusions.

Both his speed and base running were excellent, he may have had one or two miscues on the bases. Again .. he was outta the game for three years

Bottom line..do your research on the pitchers we received from Texas. As such..you will find that the deal was not so great.. Thats my concern primarily

We saw every game on TV and went to 29. Gonzales makes some real pretty plays yet messes up many routine ones. Keppinger is a far better hitter with runners on base and he changes the chemistry on the club for the better

We can discuss all we want but until Griffey plays out his contract and we are releved of his 12 million a year and sporadic play and hitting...nothing is going to change dramatically

heres a great starting lineup

1b Votto
2nd base Phillips
SS Keppinger
3rd base Encarnacion
Left Field Dunn
center Field Bruce
Right Hamilton
Catcher I dont know

Merry Xmas

 
at 5:05 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why are some of you still complaining about the Hamilton trade?

It's done and over with. He's gone. He's not coming back. He started only 70 games. You'd think we traded Babe Ruth. Read the Rangers blogs. They are screaming like hell for giving up Volquez.

I also agree with the notion of how "dumb" this blog has become.

You complain about Hamilton and his defense being gone, but the most important position on the field is shortstop and Keppinger is not in Gonzalez's class defensively. Gonzo's range and DP capabilities so far outweigh Keppinger that it's ridiculous.

But then Keppinger has played about 3 months in his career at an older age than Hamilton but some of you think he's Ozzie Guillen and Cal Ripken wrapped into one.

Dumb and dumber.

 
at 5:18 PM Anonymous DFII25 said...

Has there been any rumors about Tomko coming back to Cincy? He would be that 2nd (or 3rd) tier vetran pitcher that could give some stability and at least he is pretty much a known quantity.

 
at 5:45 PM Anonymous wiseguy said...

Why didn't we trade Dunn? Why didn't we trade Jr. We let a young guy go who was locked up for a few more years!!! That is all I hear. If you guys don't like Dunn because he can't play defense or hit with runners in scoring position and you think Griffey is a has been who loafs, then why would you think there are other teams out there that would want them? Hamilton was the chip we had. A good chip but he wasn't going to get Bedard for us. Jeeesus listen to yourselves! We have a good team. Better than we have had in years....and yes, it's because of the role players like Kep and Hop and also because of Dunn, Grif, BP, Harang and the rest of the boys. We aren't the Yankees but trust me, with what we have, we can win the Division. Be happy we are getting better. Merry Christmas to all!

 
at 6:46 PM Anonymous Redsfansince72 said...

NOWAY the Reds trade BOTH Cueto and Bailey.. I Keep Cueto and Package Bailey and Stubbs and Pelland/Maloney for Bedard and if they insist for a MLB ready pitcher, ship them Belisle

 
at 7:59 PM Anonymous mikec said...

Anon 1:01 p.m.

Number of knee surgeries done on Jay Bruce: 0

Number on Josh Hamilton: 2

Read scouting reports. Bruce is a better defensive center fielder now. Hamilton is average to below average by most scouts measure. Only Reds fans overrate his defense.

Further, no I'm not Josh's doctor. But the Reds pay the salary of his doctors and they just traded him. What does that tell you?

 
at 8:08 PM Anonymous m said...

And I never said a word about anonymous posters. And I definitely never said all problems are solved. Not by a long shot. I just think at this point in time, this looks like a good trade. Only time will tell though. Big risk from both teams. Volquez could win 15 games or 4. Hamilton could hit 40 homers or be out of the league.

I'm just saying, I think the Reds are a good bet to get the better end of this because the had an excess at centerfield.

 
at 10:25 PM Blogger Hugh D. Pohl said...

Phil,
I have to agree with most everything you say. The blog is for discussion and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but an ignorant opinion deserves a critical response.

I am a Hamilton fan and hate to see him go but I can also see the upside. Maybe it will work out, maybe not, but these insane comments about Krivsky are outrageous. As if some guy who watched a few dozen games and saw them ALL on TV knows more than Krivsky and the Reds' scouting staff.

Tell me WHY Krivsky would want to make an obviously stupid move. He wants to win just like we do only more so because his job depends on it. Let's see what happens before we go all bug-eyed and red in the face.

Merry Christmas everybody!

 
at 7:23 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have heard for my entire life about the Reds' inability to develop pitching. Never before do I recall a situation where this team had top pitching prospects at the cusp of joining the rotation. Why on earth would you trade two of these top pitching prospects, plus your top outfield prospect for Bedard? We are talking about getting Bedard here, not a 25 year old Seaver, Bedard! Bedard, with two years remaining before he is a free agent.
I say let the young guys compete now for time in the rotation and see how it shakes out. These guys are recognized throughout MLB as some of the top pitching prospects. Yes there is a premium on pitching and I say that goes for prospects as well. If someone wants two top prospects to fill their rotation for years to come they have to offer something more than Bedard. I'll stake my money on the number of wins from Baily and Cueto over the next two years over Bedard's win total. I'll not only come out with more wins, but considerably less dollars spent two years from now. The real kicker is that both will still be on my team for at least four more years thereafter and Bedard would be free to go. Bedard??

 
at 8:29 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

mikec...

you still dont seem to get it...BRUCE HAS NOT PLAYED A SINGLE GAME AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. You make these comparisons that have no validity until Bruce plays in the big leagues

anon 5:05 99.9% of the time Gonzalez is no better defensively than Keppinger.Keppinger is a much better hitter

Pohl...lecturing font in a blog speaks volumes about yourself. And when u refer to Krivsky...this the same dude that signed Mike Stanton and Cormier?

Ill tell ya why Wayne would want to make a dumb move...cause he simply aint the brightest GM in the league .It appears you are in love with Wayne..sorry for hurting your feelings

 
at 1:51 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about UP Ryan Freel for LHP Jon Lester?

 
at 5:09 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 829, who is the brightest GM in the league and what are the hallmarks of their success? What should we be looking for, as a small market team, besides the collection of young talent within the organization? Wayne doesn't swing a bat, or throw a pitch, but he's definately upgraded to pedigree of the players in the organization from day one and from top to bottom. I'm really happy with him. If their's one thing I don't question AT ALL about Wayne its how bright he is. He went to Duke University. He's consistantly been able to rub some sticks together and produce something no one else thought he could at the time. Every move he's made has been criticized. My money's riding on this one to pan out as well.
Jon

 
at 6:20 PM Anonymous rblackkdh said...

Some of you idiots don't seem to get that with Bedard, we have a chance to do something now. Bedard's ERA was a little over 3.00 facing a DH every game. In the NL, he's one of the two best in the League and we win our weak division.

 
at 8:13 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

To anonymous 8:29
First of all Jay Bruce is the #1 prospect in ALL of baseball. Yes he has not played at the major league level but the #1 prospect in All of the MLB. You do not get that title unless you have a great chance to be a GREAT PLAYER !Second Jeff Keppinger is not a MAJOR LEAGUE SHORTSTOP ! He had to play shortstop last season because the Reds where out of the pennant race and had no one else to play short. Keppinger has limited range and has a way below average arm. He had one hot month hitting and is basically a slap hitter. He also has never played shortstop on a regular basis in his ENTIRE pro career. Do you think the all the other teams that he played for never thought to play him at short before the Reds played him there. Gonzalez is a way above average major league shortstop and as a hitter is different from Keppinger but not better. Although Keppinger will be a key role player for the Reds.
Third yes Krivsky did sign Cormier and Stanton but a G.M. is not going to hit the jackpot for EVERY move he makes. Krivsky has proven with all his moves he knows what he is doing. Two bad signings do not make a bad G.M.
You on the other hand have proven you dont have a clue as to what you are talking about

 
at 9:08 PM Anonymous Bob said...

As a former pro pitcher and coach: some of the greatest trades made are ones not made.
Bedard had one outstanding year but not great. It would be extremely foolish for Krivsky to mortgage the entire system for one average pitcher.
Also the timing was great on dealing Hamilton. He's got the tools now but he also has a lot of excess baggage that may never completely disappear.

 
at 11:19 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The idiots are the posters who constantly harp on trading for Bedard as if a 6 inning pitcher who lacks durability, has never pitched 200 innings and will leave via free agency unless he gets $15-$20 million a year is somehow to supposed to be acquired for the best crop of Reds talent since the Big Red Machine days.

The idiots are the people who somehow think 2008 is the Reds only window of opportunity. Of course, these are the same idiots who will be screaming like hell at the lack of competiness in years 2009-2011 after Bedard is gone and all the young talent traded for him is racking up numbers elsewhere.

The idiots are the fantasy leaguers who believe this one deal would push the Reds to the World Series.

 
at 11:45 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

John,
Can you put a sticky at the top of every thread between now and June 15th telling all posters that Adam Dunn has a no-trade clause in his contract until that date? I think most of us would benefit from that.
Thanks,
Jon

 
at 1:23 AM Blogger oldtimer said...

I'm not as impressed with Gonzalez as some others. Never have been. In my mind he seems moody, cocky, thinks he is great shortstop, and looked close to a locker room cancer last year. His poor hitting, throwing of bats and lousy fielding and bad attitude were a joke. Hey when my kid got sick for a while, I didn;t use it as a reason to not show up for work and sulk. His absences left everyone in the dark as to what was going on and when he would be back. Not good for chemistry at all.

Keppinger actually fielded better than him. His fielding percentage was very good, and his arm was above average. All this dissing of him is just plain dumb. His average dipped only after Mac benched for hitting .340. Imagine Gonzalez's attitude if he got benched for hitting .340. He's probably buy a gun and shoot people. And Kepp still hit the ball on the nose all of September, he hit a lot of attem balls.

Maybe Gonzalez bounces back next year. I start Keppinger over him for the extra hits and try to find a buyer for AG. Like I said before, sluggers like lots and lots of guys on base in front of them. Billions wouldn't be enuff. Freel, Ross, Gonzalez all leave a sour taste in my mouth, and they were starters during the 20 of 25 loss phase in May. Reds need a better catcher badly too. Just sayin'.

 
at 9:04 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:13 anon.. i deal with facts not emotion..sorry if that upsets ya.

I dont care if Bruce is Superman in the minor leagues..so was Brandon Larson and others..Very big jump to the majors.

Keppinger played shortstop just fine, I dont care how he hits the ball. He bats almost 40 points higher than Gonzalez and is far better with runners on base.

So u see where I am going..because Bruce was voted a #1 prospect in baseball , you have already made him a successful major leauger. And because Keppinger had never played shortstop before...in your mind he cant be a shortstop.

Dude..deal with facts

Bruce has yet to play a single game at the major league level

Keppinger played great at shortstop, made all the necessary plays and hit 40 points better than Gonzalez.

 
at 10:39 AM Blogger Phill said...

About Keppinger vs Gonzalez defensively...A-Gonz is better. The numbers are deceiving. I can't remember how many times I saw Keppinger unable to get to a groundball that I know Gonzalez could've gotten. Keppinger is a career-long second basemen. He will provide GREAT off-the-bench hitting and spot starting at most of the infield positions.

 
at 10:58 AM Anonymous Brendan T. said...

rblack..... you said Bedard would be one of the two best pitchers in the league and then you have the nerve to call other people idiots? So, Bedard is better than Peavy, Webb, Harang, Zambrano, Penny, etc? You're crazy!

Anon 8:29.... great work bringing up the Cormier and Stanton signings. Is it possible to be right 100% of the time when you are dealing with people? Look at the Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees and Dodgers... their GM's screw up all of the time, they just have the money to cover up their mistakes. Why not talk about some of Krivsky's GREAT moves... getting Phillips for nothing and turning $ 50k into a top tier pitching prospect in one year. I'm by no means a huge Krivsky fan, but it's not like he's the Isiah Thomas of MLB.

 
at 11:01 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting stuff from the Rangers for all the brilliant ones out there go check out their website http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071221&content_id=2336081&vkey=news_tex&fext=.jsp&c_id=tex

or bsaeball america to see how bad this trade was for us

referring to Hamilton "His talent package is really hard to come by. This guy has the ability to do everything you can ask on a baseball field." The Rangers had to give up one of their top five starters to get Hamilton. Volquez was 2-1 with a 4.50 ERA in six games in September and was penciled in as the Rangers' fifth starter going into Spring Training. The Rangers have not identified his replacement, but have several internal candidates as possibilities.

"I did a lot of research on this guy," Hicks said..

"When I blessed the trade, the other owner didn't want to do the deal so we had to sweeten it up [with Herrera] because he was their most popular player. It's like I told Josh, I feel like I know his life story by heart because I read so much about him. There is some risk, but there is huge potential and upside. If he hadn't had the issues that he's had, we wouldn't have been able to trade for him."

A familiar name also appears in this part of the article.

In addition to trading for Hamilton, the Rangers also announced on Friday they had signed outfielder Jason Ellison and pitcher Elizardo Ramirez to Minor League contracts with an invitation to Spring Training.

Bad trade gang

 
at 11:20 AM Anonymous mikec said...

anon 8:29 a.m.:

I didn't make a single comparison about Hamilton and Bruce's hitting. You're right you can't compare their bats until Bruce faces major league pitching.

But defense is defense is defense is defense. It has nothing to do with the level of competition. If you can pick it at shortstop do you suddenly come to the big leagues and forget how? No way. And right now scouts say Bruce is an average to above average major league centerfielder and Hamilton is an average to below average major league centerfielder. No matter what fans say.

I'll give you Cormier and Stanton might not have been good moves IN HINDSIGHT. But at the time most GMs in baseball (if not all) would have made them if they were in Wayne's shoes. It's 2006, Krivsky's team is falling apart because the bullpen is horrible and he's got no one. So he trades for a guys with a 1.59 ERA at the time. It's a bad move because Cormier aged massively overnight. But at the time it seemed like a major coup. If he would have pitched them into the playoffs, it would have been brilliant.

Stanton I see the argument. Why sign a 40-year-old reliver to a two year deal. Well, simple. There aren't many experienced relievers out there. And in 2006 Stanton had a 3.99 ERA with eight saves. Not bad eh? Not many would have predicted such a known commodity would have fallen so far so fast that he suddenly had a WHIP of almost 2.

 
at 1:21 PM Anonymous Red Faced said...

John, It's difficult to keep reading all of the negativity from people responding to your posts so I thought I'd try to stay away from doing that and ask you a question instead.

As of the Reds current roster, how would you see the lineup and starting rotation looking like right now? I realize a lot of the rotation will likely shake out in spring training but I figure you have a much better idea than most of us right now how things might be looking. I'm especially interesting in what you think about the starting lineup with Hamilton gone and Freel back and healthy. I'm not sure how we are going to look on opening day. Do you see Hopper, Keppinger, Votto or Bruce playing on opening day for the Reds?

Thank you sir.

 
at 1:46 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cluless: we don't need to discuss W.K.,his record speaks for itself!!
He is lost,and why he has a job is beyond me.We have only gotten worse since he arrived...there is a reason why noone hired him for 23 yrs.to be a GM.He has proven to be incompetent!!! Check our record!! WAKE UP CINCY--FIRE KRIVSKY

 
at 2:12 PM Blogger John Fay said...

Locker room cancer? Throwing bats? What are you talking about? Gonzalez is well liked, albeit quiet, guy. Phillips credited Gonzalez with his improved defense. Keppinger is nice player, but but he's not in Gonzalez's class defensively.

 
at 2:26 PM Blogger John Fay said...

Red Faced: Barring further moves, I see the rotation as Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Bailey, Volquez. I haven't seen Cueto throw, but he could break through. I think Freel probably starts the year in center, unless Bruce has a sensational spring. Votto will start at firs.t Hopper and Keppinger will make the team as bench players.

 
at 3:07 PM Anonymous Red Faced said...

Thank you for your input John on the starting lineup, the only comment I have is that I think I'd like to see Hopper perhaps start over Freel for now just because he appears to be a better leadoff man than Freel. He has a better OBP, BA and is about the same in stolen bases. Plus Hopper is a much better bunter although Freel is most likely a better defender.

The first half of the season I just didn't think that Freel was doing the kind of things that the team needs to get from their leadoff hitter and I believe that Hopper was a much better leadoff hitter and that the Reds played better with Hopper leading off.

As for Gonzalez, I think we'll see a different player this year. I hope that the health issues with his son are behind them and if so I'm sure we'll see a more focused Gonzalez in the field. I can not imagine what it must have been like for him last year. Let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt and see what he does for us this year. I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised.

 
at 4:18 PM Anonymous firefly118 said...

Waiting for John to post another story, and that would be "Reds loose out on Prior". Padres have signed Mark Prior to a 1 year deal with terms not disclosed. Is this a shocker to the Reds community, NO! But it does have a ripple effect on our staff. Yes, many have said Prior has big questions to answer this upcoming season and injuries can be scary, but the cost ratio to the possibility of his comeback was worth it. The ripple effect is this, We traded Hamilton for minor league pitching, and we lost out on Haren and Bedard who were the only difference makers out there except for Prior. Now that he has signed elsewhere, we have no options to upgrade our team. The other pitchers out there are no better than what we have, I mean we already have pitchers who post 4.5+ ERA's. Cordero signing was a good move, but it won't make our team better than last year by itself. We are basically the same team, with a bigger name Manager, and a lot of chattering about prospects, sounds like the same old story to me... John, your take on it?

 
at 5:14 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mikec and Phil

I mean neither of you any discomfort but you both need to deal with realities

Phil the numbers are not deceiving just because they suggest Keppinger did a great job at shortstop. They dont take you where you want to go and you are making excuses and creating conjecture to validate your argument

Gonzalez is an artist at 2nd base but on a day to day basis, Keppinger is a very fine fielder.
Keppinger is a much better hitter than Gonzalez especially with men on base ..let us not forget how many times Gonzalez struck out or popped up when he had the opportunity to drive in runs

And let us not forget this was a major problem with this club

Mikec..once again..you can suggest Bruce is the second coming of God but until he actually plays one major league game...Ill wait and see.

Regarding Hamiltons abilities defensively.. I would vehemently disagree with the scouting report dude and I am sure that John Fay would agree.. Hamilton was fantastic in the field..it was exciting to see him play. That dude is one of the best defensive players in baseball.

You can throw your scouting report out the window

Red Faced..just because we are realists does not make us bad people. You wanna get excited over a ball club that has been rather terrible for the past 15 years...thats your option ...Got some news for ya Red Faced...Gonazalez batted for his career average last year. Sorry about his child..but what we saw was the best of Gonzalez
He is what he is... not what you want him to be

I dont care if Freel is healthy..hes an overpaid utility player

I love how many in here have dissed Hamilton regarding his injuries yet when it comes to Ken griffey or Freel we dont hear a peep about injury issues from the people that post under certain nicknames

Again merry xams to all

 
at 5:56 PM Blogger Frank Robinson's Ghost said...

Anon 5:14 --

If the numbers you're discussing are Fielding Percentages (as between AGon and Keppinger), they are deceiving because (unless I'm badly mistaken) FP doesn't factor in defensive range. FP basically just measures errors -- which as a practical matter means what you do with balls you touch.

I've never heard anyone say Keppinger can't handle the balls he gets to. The analysts say, though, that his range is more limited than you would like in a SS, and much more limited than AGon's. They also say he isn't great at turning the DP while AGon is very good at that.

You point out correctly that AGon's FP was poor in 2007 and that he's not historically a great hitter. If AGon goes back to the norm in 2008, the team will be much better off.

If Keppinger proves that he can hit over the course of a full major-league season like he hit for about 7 weeks last year, then he'll get himself into the starting lineup.

He is a bit old to rexpect that, but heck maybe he's a late bloomer who will turn out to be like Derek Jeter -- fine hitter, clutch guy, limited defensive range. if he does, no one will complain.

 
at 6:46 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

John,

The Reds really need a lefty. How close is Matt Molony? Gave up only 27 hits and 9 walks in 45 innings at Louisville and Chattanooga. WHIP is 0.8

 
at 6:48 PM Blogger Ducker said...

John,

The Reds really need a lefty? How close is Matt Molony? Gave up only 27 hits and 9 walks in 45 innings at Louisville and Chattanooga.

 
at 6:50 PM Anonymous Red Faced said...

I thought I would clarify my past comments regarding Gonzalez, my thoughts are that we will see a the true Gonzalez this year in the field. I thought his defense was lacking last year at times, especially with the routine groundout. He made spectacular plays at times but on other routine plays he often booted the ball. As for his offense, I agree we most likely got the best out of him that we can or ever will.

I am a very big Keppinger fan, I am just not sure how we fit him in the lineup. I would certainly like to see a lot more of Keppinger and Hopper in the lineup than Freel who should be our utility guy only. If I thought we had a chance to move Freel I'd say do it and plug Keppinger into his slot as the team utility player but I don't see us moving Freel's contract. With both of these guys on the bench is there any reason to hang onto Castro? I think not.

If the opportunity comes up for us to acquire a starting pitcher and move Gonzalez or even EE as part of the deal then I think it might be a deal worth looking at since we can certianly plug Keppinger into either spot but that all depends on the pitcher coming over. Keppinger is good for BA and OBP but an RBI man or HR hitter he is not. But with the likes of Dunn, Votto, Griffey and potentially Bruce in the lineup perhaps we need the BA/OBP guys in there to allow these guys to pick up more RBI.

I'm a BIG proponent of the guys who can hit for average and we haven't had a team with more than one or two .300 hitters in some time now. Guys who can hit for average do a lot of things for a team. They score runs by the bunches, the drive in some runs and they extend innings. We have had way too many innings where we have runners on with no outs and leave our guys stranded on base or we have those quick 8 pitch innings. We need to cut out both of these big time. Extend the innings, increase the opposing pitchers pitch count and to do that we need guys who can work the count and hit for average... but especially with runners in scoring position.

Freel and Ross in particular are awful at doing this. I'm not sure we shouldn't try Valintin behind the plate more this year. Let's give him a chance to improve his defense. He is certainly a much better clutch hitter than Ross.

 
at 7:00 PM Anonymous Red Faced said...

Two more thoughts? Hamilton was a very good defensive outfielder. He has to have one of the best arms of any outfielder, he just has an absolute cannon. I hope the trade works out for us and I wish Hamilton the best in Texas.

My other thought is concerning Joe Blanton of the A's. What do you guys think, does he help us out any this year? Shouldn't he be realatively cheap?

 
at 7:02 PM Anonymous stubby said...

Hey scoobie everyone has 100% hindsight you genius! Plus they traded down and got Perry and Andrews.

 
at 7:18 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

John I guess you weren't at the same games I was at.

AG tossed bats and helmets like candy in a parade numerous times after he weakly grounded out or whiffed, which was pretty often, especially with guys on base early in the year. Hey man when you strike out don't piss and moan all the way back to the bench; maybe you're just a lousy hitter. And he expected to be a starter whenever he returned, judging by the quotes I saw.

If he's a nice guy on the bench somwtimes, so be it. But if you didn't see the bat flipping and pissing and moaning, you're in denial, my man.

Maybe you were one of the Gonzalez apologists. I think the guy is hugely overrated, why would Boston let him go so easily?

 
at 7:49 PM Blogger Mr. Redlegs said...

How was signing Prior supposed to help this team since he wasn't expected to actually pitch in a game until June 1—at the earliest?

Then, if he has any success he walks because his agent has made it clear they are using this year as a stepping stone for a multi-year contract next year.

So take away valuable innings from one of the young starters, give them to Prior when/if he's healthy, and when Prior walks the young starter is where in his development because he lost time to a broken down mule?

Yeah, the Reds are real morons for not making that move.

 
at 7:57 PM Blogger Mr. Redlegs said...

As for Gonzalez, obviously some fans don't know the parameters of a good shortstop even while you're watching him. Gonzo's range, double play turns and arm are terrific.

So he made some errors. How many earned runs did those errors lead to? (14). How many games did his errors cost them? (One, to Houston).

Ask the pitching staff how many plays Gonzalez made to his backhand side that cut off scoring threats or innings. Or balls up the middle in which he was able to get a power throw to first?

The guy is a legit 10-year MLB shortstop, a righthanded bat with some pop who is ready-made for that bandbox park, and he makes just $11 million over the next two seasons.

Keppinger played SS while in college at Georgia but every organization (Mets, Royals, Reds) he's played for felt his range and arm were such that he needed to be a 2b. Obviously, a few fantasy-leaguers know better than scouts of those teams.

Keppinger had a great year and did a solid, if not surprising, job of manning the position while Gonzalez was dealing with family issues. But at this point and sample size Keppinger remains a backup infielder.

And yet, for all his worries about the life of his young son, Gonzo batted 24 points above his career average, hit 16 homers and drove in 55 in just 110 games. He batted in 33 runs in 92 ABs with runners in scoring position, and hit 8 homers and drove in 47 with runners on base.

That's pretty dang good in such limited games.

 
at 12:47 AM Anonymous redfan1962 said...

Oldtimer,
First of all when it comes to judging the attitude and personality of this team I will take the word of a man who is with the team, and in the locker room for 162 games a year as opposed to a fan sitting in the stands for a couple of games. Even for 80 games, how many times have you been in the locker room after the game to see how the team interacts with each other, and who is a cancer?

As for “he expected to be a starter whenever he returned” I would hope so. I would hope every man on a MLB team should think he is good enough to start. Do you want him to say, "well I think I should ride the bench for a month” Who dreams of being a major league pinch hitter. Everybody thinks they should start. Just because a guy flipped his bat after he struck out does not make him a cancer to the team. It means he has emotion

 
at 1:37 AM Blogger oldtimer said...

With all due respect for your opinions on Gonzo, Mr Redlegs, and I do hold your opinions in high esteem....

I just don;t feel the Gonzo love like a lot of folks. Call me cold, call me dumb, call me anyting but a fantasy leaguer. Couldn;t tell ya the first thing about fantasy leagues. Anyhoo,a couple things don't hold water for me. One, he had more errors than Lopez per same games most of the season, yet somehow Lopez was horrible and Gonzalez was great? Never could figure that one out. I don't see the great range variable as others do, and I saw a lot of games. Lopez and for that matter Keppinger got to a lot of tough balls, and handled their share of tough chances yet somehow Alex Gonzalez is Luis Aparicio. I just don't see it. two, scouts are not gods and are wrong lots of times. Otherwise every prospect would become a major leaguer. Lots of sure bets are busts and vice versa. I think you give scouts too much credit and weight as final say. The Reds just shook their scouting dept up, what does that say about their feelings about the previous guys? Just cuz a couple organizations give up on a guy or give him a bad rap doesn's make em right. Keppinger proves my point. His fielding surprised me, considering all the bad pub, and we all know his hitting was excellent. If you're gonna cite experts, dont' leave out the minor league hitting instructors and ccllege coach who said all the guy ever did was hit the ball hard and in the clutch. Personally from what I saw, I think he is a solid consistent hitter who can play short just fine and Gonzo is a streaky hitter prone to lots of slumps. The Reds were completely punchless the first half the season, and revived their offense only when Hopper and Keppinger played regularly. They got back to within 6 games I believe and who'
da thunk it. Gonzo, Ross, and Freel do not strike me as half way decent major league hitters. Never have, and my guess is never will.

Having said all, the proof of the pudding will be in the taste, so we'll have some tasting going on early next year. Should be interesting who dusty likes, that;s a whole nother dimension. Gonzo is a smooth fielder, no question, but I still am not very impressed by the overall package. The Reds had too many easy outs last year at the plate, and Hopper and Keppinger provided the only real fresh spark as far as hitting for average and providing baserunners. Phillips drove in a lot of runs in the last part of the season. If we could just find a catcher who can hit a little, and catch a little, I'd feel a lot better.

 
at 1:53 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hamilton will kill AL pitching and we didn't really get a chance to see him break out. Krivsky is a total moron and this is looks like a worse deal than the Nats trade.

 
at 7:55 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its funny how Mr Redlegs and others always refer to past performance of certain ballplayers like Gonzalez and/or what the scouts have to say when making excuses.

Let us not forget what the experts said about Akili Smith when the Bengals drafted him.."With a little bit of maturity he will be a top notch quarterback in the NFL. Or Brandon Larson of the Reds.."A solid 300 hitter for many years to come" TOO FUNNY

Keppinger makes all the plays necessary to be a solid shortstop or second baseman plus he hits for a much better average than Gonzalez and is able to advance runners on base. Most importantly, if ya noticed, he changed the chemistry on the club...they played much better.

Mr Redlegs..Keppinger was a far superior player while "manning" the position when Gonzalez was away and the club played a hell of alot better.. What is...is.

Aside from Hamilton..the Reds always get players ( Gonzalez etc.) on the tail end of their careers ..if ya have not noticed.

I dont care if Gonzalez makes a brilliant play occasionally. On a day to day basis, Keppinger blew the dude away. Of course in your mind this does not count because the scouts dont agree.. And since he only played shortstop in college he cant play the same in the major leagues ?

Well Mr Redlegs he did and he was very good .. Again..too funny.. Deal with reality

I am not concerned with starting pitching..most clubs are in the same boat..our problem was the 7th inning on and not getting runners in that were on base.

And frankly..getting an overpriced closer does not solve this problem and the rest of the bullpen issues. Coffey and others aint miraculously gonna get better.

We still have the two dinosaurs in the outfield and they let a potential great player in Hamilton go.

You all may get excited..not I

 
at 9:13 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Krivsky and the Reds have really screwed everything up, in my opinion in the last month, as they have missed a few obvious tenets of running a baseball club:

1. IF YOU EXPECT TO REALLY AND TRULY COMPETE, YOU DO NOT TRADE PROVEN TALENT FOR UNPROVEN PLAYERS.

L\Trial lawyers are taught never to ask a question to which they do not know the answer because you don't know what you are going to get in return. That is exactly what the Reds have done this off-season. Rather than going with what they KNOW, they have given away everything they know for the unknown. And, they will probably get bitten hard as a result. The Hamilton trade is riddiculously stupid and ill-conceived. The smartest thing the Reds have done this off-season was be hesitant to trade Bruce up until a point in time, becasue his value has increased in the process even though he has never taken one MLB cut. They should trade him to the Orioles if it would land them Bedard. You KEEP Hamilton. I'm not sure what every other Reds fan was watching last year, but I saw one of the most talented players I have seen in a decade. We should have kept him. There is no guarantee that Bruce will ever be any good, but we already know Hamilton is. Edinson Volquez is not proven either. Why would you trade a proven player for an unproven pitcher and the ability to keep an unproven outfielder? Makes no sense ... instead, the Reds could have had a proven pitcher (Bedard) AND a proven outfielder (Hamilton). Dumb. It would be one thing if the Reds mortgaged their entire future by making the Bedard trade, but they don't -- Hamilton is 26 and Bedard is 27. If anything, they are setting themselves up for a great future in the next 7-8 years by having a great rotation of young vets, with Harang, Bedard and Arroyo.

2. THE REDS ARE CHEAP AND HID BEHIND THE "WE'RE A SMALL MARKET TEAM" IDEOLOGY.

The Reds could compete by getting and paying to stay top-notch quality pitchers -- however, they don't want to pay that kind of money. Rather than getting Bedard and locking him up to a big deal, they will be going to the cheap journey-man type and unproven prospect type pitchers. Teams who really compete -- and by compete, I mean WIN THE WORKD SERIES -- have proven and expensive stud starting pitchers. Jon Lieber, Cliff Lee and/or unproven prosects do not meet those critera. However, Bedard would have. The Reds really have not given themselves a chance to really be a team that could win beacuse they continue to prefer cheap prospects and has-beens over true stud pitchers who are currently in their prime. They buy suits from JC Penny's instead of Brooks Brothers. Although both are suits, only one is quality.

 
at 10:27 AM Blogger Mr. Redlegs said...

Where do you all get the Reds are cheap?

Since Castellini took over they have repeated dropped cash for players and made deals to fill holes when they were in contention. They've also eaten a couple of contracts when things didn' tpan out and extended players to avoid potentially high arbitration.

They extended Harang and Arroyo. They just spent $3.5 mil for a proven manager. They gave the largest contract in franchise history to a proven closer. They picked up Dunn's $13 mil option.

But if they don't (idiotically) drop their best collection of young talent since the Big Red Machine era for a two-year rental on a pitcher who has turned down a $52 million extension and has never pitched 200 innings, has one healthy season in the last six, who can't get into the 7th inning, the Reds are cheap bastards, morons and fools?

For that vision, look in the mirror.

Unreal.

 
at 10:35 AM Anonymous Brendan T. said...

Anon 9:13,

1. So we should just stock-pile 5 "talented" outfielders instead of trading one of them to try to improve the obvious need of pitching help? Great philosophy!

2. We CAN'T function like a big market team. If you want to cheer for a team like that, go jump on the Red Sox bandwagon. Bedard WOULD NOT have signed here long term no matter how much you wanted him to.

 
at 10:40 AM Blogger Mr. Redlegs said...

Wow, there's a lot of Marge Schott's on this board the past few weeks. Wha, all scouts do is watch games?

It's guess teams are wasting their cake on all those old farts sitting just behind the backstop charting every pitch, every play, as either their prospective team's advance scout or evaluation scout.

The advance scout is responsible for the detailed reports each manager gets before the next series. These reports tell you every aspect of the incoming team and its players. It's these reports that pitcher, catcher, pitching coach and sometimes the shortstop go over before each game.

The evaluation scout is many times people like the Yankees' Gene Michael, one of the best, who looks at prospective players being mentioned in deals or the draft.

Most often these are not the "bird dog" scouts who prowl the country looking at high school and college games, though the evaluation scout will many times look at players their teams have narrowed for the draft. That varies from team to team.

The advance scouts are also the greatest source of information on players and their abilities, and any tidbits about the team, its tendencies and player nuances. And there's not a beat writer in baseball who doesn't lean on a scout for information and guidance.

The ol' buzzards congregate in the press room cafeteria before each game and it's pure joy to listen and learn from them. They know their stuff.

Otherwise, they'd just be dumbasses watching the games on TV.

 
at 10:42 AM Blogger Brad said...

The more I look at the Hamilton trade, the more I see this having the potential to being the worst trade Krivsky has made to this point. The Reds had Hamilton for the next 5 years, the next two really cheap. Volquez had 3 years to crack the Rangers rotation and couldn't do it, and from what I've read he has a horrible work ethic.

My guess, too much jealousy in the clubhouse for Hamilton to stay.....which is sad and pathetic. He was stealing to much thunder.

 
at 10:43 AM Blogger Mr. Redlegs said...

Okay, Anon 7:55, you're really going to make a comparison of NFL to MLB scouting, of a proven 10-year veteran to an undrafted rookie, of a quarterback to a shortstop?

That's so pathologically absurd there's no reasonable place to begin. . . .

 
at 10:44 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally from what I saw, I think he is a solid consistent hitter who can play short just fine and Gonzo is a streaky hitter prone to lots of slumps. The Reds were completely punchless the first half the season, and revived their offense only when Hopper and Keppinger played regularly. They got back to within 6 games I believe and who'
da thunk it. Gonzo, Ross, and reel do not strike me as half way decent major league hitters. Never have, and my guess is never will.

PERFECTLY SAID MR OLD TIMER I AGREE COMPLETELY

SOME OF THESE PEOPLE ARE SO LOCKED INTO LOSING THEY DONT REALIZE THAT FREEL GRIFFEY AND GONZALEZ WERE A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM AND THEY HATE CHANGE

FUNNIER YET THE SAME PEOPLE APPROVE OF THE HAMILTON TRADE STATING HES 'INJURY PRONE'..YET WHEN IT COMES TO GRIFFEY OR FREEL YOU NEVER HEAR A PEEP ABOUT THEIR LENGTHY INJURIES THEY HAVE A VERY SELECTIVE MEMORY I GUESS

BOTTOM LINE... THE CLUB PLAYED MUCH BETTER WHEN KEPPINGER AND HOPPER PLAYED ON A CONSISTENT BASIS..

 
at 10:57 AM Blogger jdeezman said...

Anonymous @ 9:13- When you start off referencing trial lawyers... you've already lost all credibility. Lawyers are the pariah of our society.

1) In regards to Josh Hamilton - you are right in one aspect only, and that is that he is a KNOWN quantity.
He is a known recovering addict with two bum knee's and has problems staying healthy.
75% of one season DOES NOT make you a proven MLB star.
After this trade, and reading what the Hamilton groupies on here said... I immediately went to Cooperstown to pray before the great Josh Hamilton's bust.

Guess what? It ain't there, because HE ain't there.

We DON'T know that Hamilton is proven, but we do know he has potential. AS do the two young pitchers he was traded for... especially Volquez.

We ALSO should know that he struggles against lefties and especially had a hard time during inter-league play.
Hmmm... could it be that maybe he will NOT be an all-world player?

Yes it could be.

2) Let's say we mortgaged the future and sent Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, and Votto to Baltimore for Bedard.
So now we have a #1, #2, #3 starter... and nothing else. Belisle and Livingston? YEAH!!!
We also have Dunn, Hamilton, and Griffey in the outfield.
Hamilton relapses, or just gets another two month stomach virus, or one of his two bad knee's goes and he's done for the season.
Now what do we do in the outfield? Hopper or Freel right? Ok, we do that and Griffey goes back to form and get's hurt making a great catch and is done in May...
Now our outfield is Dunn, Freel, and Hopper... and the rest of MLB is just shaking in their boots.

Oh yeah... Let's also say that we lose one of our big three pitchers... what then? We sure as heck can't bring up OUR young studs... BECAUSE WE TRADED THEM AWAY!!!

3) As far as the "THE REDS ARE CHEAP AND HID BEHIND THE "WE'RE A SMALL MARKET TEAM" IDEOLOGY"...

We ARE a small market team you mental midget, and they really can't afford to spend the dollars for the big names. That's not anyone hiding behind anything... it's a fact.
We're spending more this year than we ever have and the way that Krivsky is doing it is BASEBALL SMART... pitching is the basis of winning in the major leagues... not recovering crack addict outfielders who have to also have a babysitter hired to make sure they don't screw up.

Go check it out... the Rangers hired Narron to be Hamilton's nanny.

You Hamilton groupies are absolutely ludicrous.

 
at 11:26 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

"We still have the two dinosaurs in the outfield and they let a potential great player in Hamilton go."

I wouldn't call Dunn a dinosaur. He is 28. A horrible fielder yes, but a dinosaur?

 
at 12:07 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr Redlegs the point of my comparisons of your so called " sports experts" is that they are wrong more than right. I am sorry you cant understand this and feel the need to throw big words such as pathological in to impress us.

Laughingly, your very same "experts" would probably have Pete Rose playing DH in the American league because he "lacks talent" .

The sporting experts are the ones that said Ken Anderson had no arm strength and would not make it in the NFL. They said Bret Farve lacked accuracy and that Tom Brady would only be a marginal quarterback. Your experts and scouts said Brandon Larson would be a consistent 300 hitter in the major leagues.

By the way Redlegs , the "experts" said that Gonzalez was on the downside of his career and terribly inconsistent when the Reds acquired him..In this case they were correct

Mr Redlegs I don't need an expert to tell me the Reds have been terrible the past 15 years. I dont need an expert to tell me that the club played much better when Keppinger was playing. I don't need an expert to tell me that Keppinger actually batted runners in while Gonzalez struck out or popped up in the same situation on a consistent basis dude

Read your own post regarding money spent. They overpaid for an over the hill manager that nobody else wanted.They overpaid for a closer nearing 33 years of age. They certainly overpaid for a washed up Griffey and have damaged this franchise for many years> They overpaid for Cormier as they did with Stanton. They aint cheap..they just dont know what they are doing

 
at 12:14 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

redfan1962

Problem with your comment is, no one gets in the locker room but writers, some family, and staff. And if you defer to writers, well that's a problem too since each one has their own opinion, who's to say who's right? I guess you're either one of the beat writers and of course the one who is right or you've decided the one whose opinions you like is right. Either way it's all opinions, no? Which is the fun of a blog. And it doesn't mean they're the last word on anything, just additional info. Fans sometimes sense things the scribes don't, why else would they participate in and read these blogs? Don's sell the fans short, they after all and not the writers fill up the seats with revenue and atmosphere. So what they think and what they see and feel counts every bit as much.

If flipping bats and grimacing is your idea of good passion, I just hope you never coach my son's little league team. I never once had a coach, even in college and semi pro, let bat flipping go on, not even for the stars. Yeah everybody loses their temper once in a while. Gonzo did it consistently when in a slump, and I found it boorish and indicative of an inability to handle tough times. I give him a bit of a pass for the issue with his kid, but it still stikes me as odd we never once heard just what the illness was. Or why he needed to be away so long. Why the blanket over the information? Find it a bit curious.

as for his 'expecting to start' attitude, I got the strong impression he had a sense of entitlement, which is different from wanting to start. He seemed to expect the job to be waiting for him, even though Keppinger clearly was hot and helping the team win. Only teams with basd chemistry have entitlement programs for favored players, which is why the Reds sucked so horribly last year. They had to beg Griffey to play right, Ross played way too long because of the two year contract deal from Krivsky, ditto Coffey, Freel, and AGon and we all saw the results, an absolutely horrible season which got better only whan all of the above got hurt or sent down. Deal with facts here, not player love or writer favoritism. Writers have their own slant. Some feud with players and will never say anything good about that guy, while kissing others' arses.

I've said I like the Hamilton trade for getting additional young arms. Hamilton is NOT a sure bet for the HOF, as many think around this town. Volez has pop and aggressiveness, and the Reds need that. It's a gamble, which is something all good GMs have to do. The team still needs deep overhauling, and elimination of some attitude issues, and I don't see a whole lot done in that area yet.

 
at 12:16 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oldtimer wrote:
"Hey when my kid got sick for a while, I didn’t use it as a reason to not show up for work and sulk. His absences left everyone in the dark as to what was going on and when he would be back. Not good for chemistry at all."

I actually think my child being on his deathbed is a pretty good reason to miss work and sulk. If you value work over your own child, then you have missed the point of life.

 
at 12:17 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jdeezman...Hamilton does not have two bad knees. And Wayne is spending money..but not wisely..Are we still paying Stanton and for Cormier this year? What about the other 10 dozen players that Wayne has signed and that have passed through Cincinnati the past year?

Actually when you consider Northern Kentucky and Indiana..Cincinnati really is not a small market team as you would refer

I am not a Josh Hamilton Junkie..but the guy was brilliant in the outfield. When you consider that he was out of baseball for three years ..his hitting was not bad either.

As far as name calling..I met Josh and his wife..Very nice people. But I doubt very seriously you would call him any names to his
face

 
at 12:35 PM Blogger jdeezman said...

To Anonymous @ 10:44 - Once again... let's try to look at REALITY.

The only reason that we got to within six games was because of the huge collapse by the Brew Crew. If you expect that to happen again, then seek help.

Griffey is going nowhere, at least until after he hit's #600. He put's the few butts in the seats as it is... he & Dunn.

Ross, Freel, and Gonzo are NOT feared hitters... no one ever said they were.
Then you have to make a choice... do you want a better defense or a better offense?

With Keppinger at SS, Valentine behind the plate, and Hopper in CF over Freel we were a better offensive team. We were a MUCH WORSE defensive team. Valentine sucks defensively... especially at throwing out base runners. Kepp can't hold Gonzo's jock at SS defensively, if you can't see that it's because you don't want too.
Hopper over Freel/Hamilton in CF? Hopper is much better than Freel and not as good as Hamilton. Hopper at LF over Dunn or RF over Junior? Won't happen, as referenced above... money decision.

This isn't the Big Red machine of the 70's. This team can't even come close offensively... so what does that mean?
You put the best defense out there in order to have the best chance at winning. That means that Gonzo and Ross have to be on the field.

I like Keppinger too, but he isn't a 10 year MLB SS as Mr. Redlegs said before... at least not at this point. I also like Hopper, but if Bruce is all that they say he is... Hopper will have to go somewhere else to start or wait until Griffey or Dunn leave.

 
at 12:38 PM Anonymous scooby said...

I really don't follow baseball like I should.
Anderson ... Williams... same thing. Like Smith.... Jones, who cares, you know what I meant.

 
at 12:51 PM Blogger jdeezman said...

Anonymous @ 12:17 - What in the blazes are you talking about? What name did I call Hamilton?

A recovering addict? That's what he IS, and he better get used to hearing it... so should you.
As a drug and alcohol counselor for 25 years, I would most definitely say that to his face if needed... as I'm qualified to do so!

If you're referring to the "mental midget" statement... I was referencing YOU with that remark.

I suggest you do a little research before posting again.
Hamilton has had both knees operated on... and ANY operation, as a MLB outfielder will tell you, slows you down somewhat and weakens the knees overall. Knee's are nothing to mess with as an outfielder.
Also... Cincinnati IS a small market team... here is an article from Baseball Almanac that explains it;
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml.

There's a ton of info about small market teams... it's poeple like yourself who don't want to deal with the reality of the situation that don't want the info. You just want something to gripe about.

 
at 12:53 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

jdeezman .. Keppinger did much better than Gonzales both offensively and defensively..numbers don't lie

I know we all want Ross batting 200 as our catcher

When we had Gonzo and Ross playing we were terrible. The team played much better with Keppinger and Valentine. Numbers dont lie dude

Deal with facts not immature emotion

 
at 1:22 PM Blogger reaganspad said...

Reds Defense was best since 1977. That says a lot about the upgrades this team has made everywhere.
Gonzales is a better SS than Kepp. Kepp struck out 12 times.... amazing.
We are a better team with both of them.
Ross and Coffee will have seasons more like 2006 than 07 and all of the critics on this board will be saying that they knew Wayne "when" .....

 
at 1:33 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

jdeezman..you may or not be a counselor..but even if you treated individuals with drug issues ..that does not provide you license to diminish others

I dont believe Hamiltons knees were a factor or injury if I am correct.Perhaps you need to get your facts straight. I think he had some gastrointestinal issues and a sprained wrist

Milwaukee is a small market team as you would suggest and how did they do this year dude? Even if Cincinnati was small market..it isn't the amount of money you spend its how u spend it

deezman I have reviewed your postings and you certainly impress me as someone with a great deal of anger.

People is not spelled poeple. Perhaps you should refrain from the name calling until you can at least spell at the 5th grade level

 
at 1:38 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

The Reds did put their 'supposed' best defensive team on the field to start the season, and by May the season was over. They had zero clutch hitting during the big losing streak. Before the season started, I said this was the worst team I had ever seen in my lifetime. And then...

I heard Narron and Krivsky's garbage re Gonzalez' great defense, "could be best in all of baseball",\..yeah, right...the guy had more errors than Lopez (!) for most the year. And stop making excuses for him. if his personal life is affecting his job performance, he either needs therapy and a year off or he needs to get focused. How does he help his kids if he plays his way out of baseball? Oh I forgot it's the little guys like me you attacke, who have to work when our kids are really really sick because we aren't millionaires and can;t afford to lose our jobs. Yet you coddle Gonzalez and make fun of me. Grow up, buddy.

Those like you who think good defense is the number one key to winning, well, i just hope I get to play against whatever team you're on. It's just so limited thinking. Solid hitting, fielding, and pitching together are required to WIN. Period. This "defense wins" theory is idiotic. YOU HAVE to have BALANCE, which the Reds totally lacked last year. I guess you're still stuck on the concept of losing.

As for the facts surrounding his child's illness, show me where anyone reported the actual facts on his condition, other than very sick. Again I have no problem with a player leaving for a while, but why the blanket over the actual condition and when he would return. Even McKanin was in the dark about when his shortstop would return and Pete was managing to create a future job and money for himself. Think Gonzo's absences helped him build team chemistry? The Reds has almost no Excused Medical Absences in the last 20 years, and Gonzo had three. The bigger question is what if his child gets sick again this year? How in the heck do you rebuild a ball club around an uncertain and missing player? It's a tough business . When players hurt and can't perform, they get cut. If you can't perform bacause of outside distractions or absences, you aren't helping a team win. PERIOD. Last time I checked, baseball isn't social work. People get fired all the time.

By your logic anybody with personal problems should get special treatment on the Reds. Ssounds like you'd like to continue enabling this zoo. Isn't the Bengals' sad management dysfunction enuff for one city? I thought thr Reds were dysfunction junction last year. Narron kept saying the team was on the verge of playing great as they kept losing, Krivsky kept signing up the wrong guys to extensions, and the bullpen was so bad it was ridiculous. The Reds looked the poster child for codependency.Like the drug and alcohol gentleman said, if Hamilton can't stand on his own without a baby sitter or take hearing negative opinons bout his issues and his need to deal openly, then he's still not recovering. If Gonzo has the same problems this year, I wish him well, but the Reds need to dump him. Quick. Trust me. Baker won't coddle him. And his absences did hurt the team.

 
at 1:40 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

SINCE WHEN DID HAMILTON GET BAD KNEES? IF HE HAS BAD KNEES ILL TAKE EM ..HE IS ONE OF THE QUICKEST OUTFIELDERS IN BASEBALL DIDNT HE HAVE SOME TYPE OF STOMACH FLU AND A SPRAINED FOREARM..WHATS DEEZMAN TALKING ABOUT?

 
at 1:50 PM Blogger John Fay said...

Oldtimer: Gonzalez chose to keep the nature of the his child's illness private which is his right. But it was very serious. To go on like you have about this is completely out of line. Players greatly respected for him for the way he handled himself under great adversity.

 
at 1:51 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reaganspad..our record at the end of the season was what and how many games did we finish outta first place

what is our record over the past 15 years

Yeah Coffey and Coss will have dynamite years and ken griffey will play a full season and bat 320 again

And the Bengals are only a player or two away from the Superbowl

 
at 1:58 PM Blogger Mr. Redlegs said...

Anon 12:07, where in the name of Doubleday did someone say Larson would be a .300 hitter? Are you the bird who keeps mentioning Larson as some great prospect, in the same breath as the No. 1 prospect in all of baseball in Jay Bruce?

Larson was a college shortstop with some pop. That's all. The Reds took him in great part because of his age, experience, signability factor and the possibility he might be ready for the big leagues sooner than the more expensive high school kids.

Sorry you can't see that. Mr. Ed wore glasses. So should you.

As for your absurd comparisons of NFL to MLB scouting and development, well . . . they are just irrevocably absurd. One is not the other.

And obviously you're one of these fans who puts a 120-point hede on every team's mistakes but conveniently overlooks the bigger picture and the things they do right. The medical term for this disease is called Armchair Hyperopia, but most people call it being a dumbass fan in his La-Z-Boy.

 
at 2:03 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Baker won't coddle him"

Baker is known as a manager who coddles and befriends his players.

 
at 2:16 PM Anonymous youngin said...

Oldtimer, why is the medical history of Gonzalez's son's anybody’s business but Alex and his wife. Why does he have to tell you? How do you know he didn't inform the team of the problems and then asked them not to go public. YOU DON'T Clearly you have a problem with Gonzo, and that is fine to criticize his streaky batting and poor average with RISP. But to criticize him for missing work to be with his sick son, and then not telling YOU about the details is ridiculous and shows a general lack of intelligence on your part.

 
at 2:28 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

That's cool, John. I'll leave it alone from here out. I certainly do respect his right to privacy. But there's the fine line between being a public figure and celebrity, and dealing with information. Some stuff gets reported that's very personal by one guy and another guy is hands off. The line keeps moving.

Ballplayers are public figures. Like most celebrities in America, the media often times feels the right and privlege to dig deep into their lives, and we accept the compromise of that privacy as normal and necessary. Whether it really is or not. It's just the way it is. And it seems to be up to an individual media person's personal morality as to whether he/she goes deeper than the next guy to complete the story. Who's to say who's right? I dunno.

Boomer E.is very open about Gunnar's cystic fibrosis, and because of that raises all sorts of money for the cause. His kid has also had some close calls. It is all very public and no one is offended by or exploitive of the information. Just never quite understood the information blanket over the situation. With papparrazzis tailing Holywood stars Spears and People magazine spilling the inside story, it's hard to find the line any more. AG's absence, as unfortunate and reasonable as the circumstances warranted, had an affect on the team's chemistry in my eye. And I believe you when you say the players were understanding. But bottom line is baseball,while being made up of people, is 180 degrees from social work. It was a very very unfortunate situation, no one's fault. But if ongoing this year too, may no longer be functional for the team. Hopefully it all resolves itself positively, Gonzo is a very good fielding shortstop and no doubt a major league talent and if he hits like the last month of the season, will be a contributor to a potentially good season. i wish him and his family well. Period. Nuff said.

 
at 2:54 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

MrRedlegs...everyone involved in bringing Larson to the majors felt he would be a dynamite hitter ask John Fay..

My reference to the "experts" whether it be MLB NFL Hockey Boxing etc..is that the experts are just as wrong as much as the time as they are correct..pay attention

As far as putting a hex or being negative..sorry pal i dont get excited until i see the results on the field. Perhaps you are the one that needs glasses. This team has been deplorable for what 17 years

The signing of a 32 year old inconsistent reliever and a couple of pitching prospects does not make me all warm and fuzzy

What bigger picture are you referring to? Is getting a closer gonna solve all the problems we have with middle relief.Twas not only the 9th inning that killed us..It was the 6th 7th and 8th innings.

And as far as these pitching prospects we got from Texas..they may not even make it to the major leagues

I still see Dunn Griffey and Gonzalez playing for the Reds and our inability to score runs with men on base has not changed with the aforementioned 3 some. Nor is the fact that we stink at the catching position

Of course everyone is excited about this fellow Bruce..but if I am correct he has not played in a single major league game

You remind me of the long suffering Bengals fans. Theres always next year and boy our draft picks will take us to the Superbowl.

And for anyone to provide you a dose of reality gets you madder than a bull in a china shop

I am just as much a reds fan as you and would love to see this team succeed. But until they go out and sign great players in the prime of their careers, not on the tail end or "prospects" ..I for one am not getting to excited

I know the parameters of a good shortstop and keppinger is more than adequate defensively and a far superior hitter to Gonzalez

And again, its not spending money its how ya spend it

Our team finished what last year? Do you need an expert to help you out with that?

 
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