Reds Insider: My take on the Patterson signing

Monday, March 3, 2008

My take on the Patterson signing

I'm filing from the Enquirer Panera Bread Bureau on Tiamiami Trail. No wireless at Chez Fay. Anyway, signing Corey Patterson is no-risk, high-reward deal. The guy's only 28, he can run and he has pop.

But he's got to get his on-base percentage up -- way up -- to be effective. The Reds say he made strides last year.

“Our scout in the area, Jeff Taylor, saw him making adjustments late in the year,” Wayne Krivsky said. “He was putting the ball in play, not striking out as much, not trying to hit home runs.”

His on-base percentage was .333 after the All-Star Break. That's not Rickey Henderson. But it's vast improvement over his career mark .298.

The light goes on for guys at different ages. I remember thinking trading for Brandon Phillips was a silly move. They had Tony Womack, Rich Aurilia and Ryan Freel to play second after all. That worked out pretty well.

117 Comments:

at 8:51 PM

Anonymous said...

Phillips was acquired via trade. I think Wayne gave Cleveland a bucket of balls in return.

at 8:53 PM

John Fay said...

Right, fixed.

at 8:56 PM

Steven Ross said...

Reading the tea leaves while burning incense, I'd say the trade winds just picked-up. Conjecture only but goodbye Freel!

at 8:57 PM

Anonymous said...

could my life as a reds fan get any worse? Jay Bruce Louisville you go, stupid, just plain stupid.

at 9:01 PM

Steven Ross said...

Not so fast Anonymous...wait until the dust settles. No way we keep Bruce, Freel, Hopper and Patterson.

Even if Bruce gets sent to Louisville, I still say somebody in our very crowded OF is packing their bags.

at 9:02 PM

Anonymous said...

Here is a lock: Opening Day Lineup:

CF - Patterson
SS - Keppinger
RF - Griffey
2B - Phillips
LF - Dunn
3B - Encarnacion
1B - Votto
C - Ross
P - Harang

Anybody disagree? Dusty loves the l/r/l/r aspect of a lineup.

at 9:18 PM

Brad said...

I hope Patterson's physical goes as well as Craig Wilson's. Hopper and Freel have much better OBPs. They can play center field. I don't see what the issue was there. I get it if we wanted to delay the Jay Bruce arbitration/free agency clock, but Patterson is no good and Freel and Hopper would have been fine replacements to hold center. I know this is a minor deal, but it smells like Dusty wants to reunite the Cubs gang.

at 9:28 PM

BEAVNIER said...

John this really bothers me. The Reds may think this is a good pickup but how serious of a look is Dusty really giving Bruce? Picking up Loften or Patterson was rumored a few weeks ago. We all know Baker's reputation regarding veteran ball players.

at 9:28 PM

Unknown said...

I don't understand why the Reds keep picking up outfielders, we have enough to support two or three teams. Maybe we should look for another catcher. Ross is a pitchers catcher, but he doesn't have enough pop in his bat. If only Valentine and Ross could be merged into one catcher.

at 9:30 PM

Anonymous said...

When Dusty was hired as Reds manager, didn't he say (or hint) he had ex-players calling him up to discuss opportunities with the Reds?

Well, here we are.

at 9:38 PM

Anonymous said...

Ross doesn't have enough pop? He's got plenty of pop. Pop is all that guy has. That, and a .220 average.

at 9:39 PM

Chris at Redleg Nation said...

I agree with John's general impression, but don't know how they're going to find ABs to sort out the four legitimate CF candidates (not counting Dickerson, who presumably goes to minor league camp), plus Hairston, plus get Dunn and Junior ready to go. That's the downside. That, and putting too many sharp objects (i.e. veterans) in Dusty's hands.

at 9:39 PM

Anonymous said...

To be honest, I could have understood signing Lofton much better than Patterson. I know Patterson signed a minor-league contract and the word on the street was that Lofton would not but I don't see how this option could potentially upgrade this team. All it does is create a log-jam in CF, which if I'm not mistaken, we already had.

at 9:40 PM

Ankur Varma said...

I think this is a great pick-up. Patterson killed the Reds when he was with the Cubs, and he's still young. He was brought up too early and it showed, and the only thing that can come from this move is good. If he doesn't exceed expectations, he gets cut, no big deal It's all upside.

at 9:41 PM

Matt McWax said...

Couple tidbits about Patterson. His strikeout averages:

2002: .240
2003: .234
2004: .266
2005: .262
2006: .203
2007: .141

August 07 was his first full time month in the bigs with less than 10 k's. He used to be in the 20's and even 30's.

His splits are unpredictable. He hit lefties well last year but can't be expected to do so this year.

He has a fantastic career obp (off-base percentage), just the kind of plumber needed for unclogging the basepaths.

You just have to wonder if Chris Dickerson isn't pretty much the same player, and he's four rungs below in the depth chart.

at 9:44 PM

Anonymous said...

So I am guessing that my pick up of Jay Bruce in the 20th round of my fantasy draft is not going to pay any dividends this year.

at 9:49 PM

Ankur Varma said...

Anon 9:02,

I really like that lineup on paper as long as Patterson pans out. It's not the best defensive line up, but offensively, could be good for 5 runs a game.

I like Bruce maybe starting in AAA; Patterson started around the same age and it may have hurt him. So no rush on bring Jay to the big leagues. Plus, they can keep him away from free agency if they don't bring him up for a month or two.

at 9:52 PM

Anonymous said...

You know...when I was a teenager, I played a few years in an academy in Miami. The team's name was the Cubs...and I played CF. Hmmm...I wonder...

Yep! I smell a comeback! John...could you please send me Dusty's phone number? Ah, never mind...I'll just head down to Sarasota right now!

at 9:53 PM

Big Rick said...

Has everyone lost sight that both Griffey & Dunn will be gone next year? Why not pick up a guy for NOTHING, that has the potential to be your CF for a few years, & be a 20-20 guy. That was the major problem, with giving away a future 40 HR guy in Hamilton, the Reds had nobody to replace those HR's. With Patterson in CF next year, they can slide Bruce over to RF. He's not who I'd want leading off, but would not be a bad #7 guy in your order.

at 9:55 PM

Big Rick said...

Everyone is complaining about this move, but the reality is, both Griffey & Dunn will probably be gone next year. Why not pick Patterson up for NOTHING?? That's the key...it costs us NOTHING. Maybe you make some adjustments with him, and he fills an open spot when both those guys are gone next year. That's 70 HR's you're losing. Where is that going to be made up? That was my beef with the Hamilton trade.The Reds didn't seem to be thinking ahead. What if he pulls it together, and next year you have a CF that can run & hit a few HR's, and you slide Bruce over to RF

at 9:56 PM

Matt McWax said...

I agree we need catcher depth, but agree with Scott on Ross's pop: 38 hr in 558 at-bats and .478 slg over last two years, which would put him most likely in the top 10 over that period. However, if he has another 2007, I think the Reds need to trade him and one of our best prospects for a big-timer.

Got no clue on why Hairston was signed.

at 10:40 PM

Anonymous said...

John Fay...I thought the same thing about the Brandon Phillips deal. But I do think there's a difference here. Corey Patterson has had a lot of opportunity. Maybe the light will go on, who knows. If Bruce isn't ready from a skill level, fine, but if he is close, I'd rather see him learn at the major league level than dominate at triple a again.

Here's what I think is happening here...Castellini has brought in Jocketty and hasn't extended Krivsky's deal. Krivsky is on the hook for only this season. Kids are a risk and he's trying to bring in veterans in an effort to win now while staying within budget. I guarantee if the Castellini gave Krivsky a 3-5 year extension, you'd see the kids this year.

at 10:51 PM

Unknown said...

but he doesn't have enough pop in his bat???

In the last 2 years David Ross has had 38 hrs in 558 at bats. So about every 15 at bats he hits a bomb. I think I can take that for a catcher that has a good arm, and handles our pitchers well.

at 10:58 PM

Anonymous said...

Here's the other thing you have to remember about Patterson...he is a Scott Boras client.

Even if Boras makes the team and has a low salary, he could have a decent year, but the Reds won't be able to afford him after '08.

That was one of the best things about trading Kyle Lohse away...not having to deal with Boras.

at 11:12 PM

Anonymous said...

I smell trade for Blanton here...or Pitching help...Let us all wait and see

at 11:20 PM

Anonymous said...

Both of these players are useless out-machines. Their OBPs (most important stat in baseball) are terrible. Nothing good can come of either of them. Waste of time, waste of cash.

at 11:21 PM

Anonymous said...

Why do so many of you take every little signing as the end of the world as we know it? It's spring training, for crying out loud. There's no harm in signing free agents to MINOR LEAGUE contracts to create more competition. One of these signings may actually turn out to be good. If not, there's no loss. Just relax, enjoy the fact baseball has started again, and just see where spring training takes us. You're all going to have heart attacks or strokes before we get through the first week of the regular season at this rate.

at 11:29 PM

Anonymous said...

Scott from Indiana is right...but does anyone else see a trade in the works with this move...

at 11:30 PM

Brandon said...

Wow if the kids are ready we could have a lot of random veteran trade bait. Could have a Fogg, Freel, Hatteberg and maybe even a few others we couldn't hold onto but could move.

at 12:24 AM

Anonymous said...

Unreal. Hairston is a complete waste of time. Patterson could be a big base-stealing lead-off guy for us while Rocco, er, I mean Jay, rots in AAA again this season.

Krivsky is addicted to the Rumpke Mountain of discarded outfielders.

Forget that we easily have the worst pitching in the national league, the guy continually adds outfielders when we're deepest at that position.

It's really annoying, you know? What's next, signing another slow tubby SS?

at 12:27 AM

Anonymous said...

I like Patterson. He has nice speed and decent potential. But is he going to steal more bases and hit for a higher average than Norris Hopper? Ryan Freel (when healthy)?

Sure, Patterson is a low-risk pick up. Maybe we're about to trade two veteran outfielders for pitching?

We need pitching Wayne, thats P I T C H I N G

Hello, McFly?

at 12:30 AM

Anonymous said...

Hey! How about that! My old cleats still fit! Hang on Dusty! I'm coming!

at 12:32 AM

Dan H said...

Patience everyone. Let's re-evaluate these moves around March 20 or so. Trades happen in spring( Arroyo-Pena).Low risk-possible high reward signings.

at 12:47 AM

Mr. Redlegs said...

The Patterson move makes a lot of sense. Look hard.

They don’t have a lefty off the bench with pop for for pinch-hitting, and having a lefty outfielder gives them options as a defensive substitution, pinch-runner, or to give Griffey and Dunn a breather. Patterson can be a very useful tool in a variety of roles as a No. 4 outfielder.

His presence also could mean the end of a three-catcher idea because it relieves the issue of Valentin being the primary left-handed pinch-hitter.

Why is everyone worried about Patterson's OBP? He's not a leadoff hitter. Last year, for the Orioles, his success came in the second half at the bottom of the order. Yet his best numbers came in the 2-hole. If Keppinger is the Opening Day SS, place Patterson in the 2-hole.

Patterson is a cheap but effective piece of the puzzle. He’s got some serviceable core skills and worth at a very friendly price. What's not to like, he doesn't fit into your fantasy league plans?

at 12:50 AM

robby said...

Another move of little consequence. But one does have to wonder what team everyone is watching when it is said the Reds have a log jam in the outfield. They have two proven major league outfielders, Griffey and Dunn. Griffey will likely get hurt, leaving Freel who is awful, Hopper who is a good spot starter, and now Patterson. (Bruce will not make the team out of camp unless he plays so well they have no choice but to keep him)The second miscalculation is to think the Reds are fine with Ross behind the plate. He is an offensive liability and there is no reason a team should ever start a guy who only makes contact on a sporadic basis. There is not another team in baseball that Ross would start for. I'm all for being upbeat about the home team, but let's get a grip. This is a team with lots of holes that is at least 2 to 3 years away from contending. No need to get too high or too low about any of these scrap heap pick-ups Krivsky is fond of completing.

at 12:54 AM

Mr. Redlegs said...

Said it time and again, time and again . . . Jay Bruce was not going north with the big league club unless he batted about .900 in Florida. It never made sense.

* A year ago this time he was in A-ball.

* He makes the Reds too left-handed for now and if he's going to platoon, he's better off getting ABs at Louisville.

* There is absolutely no reason in God's name for him to be launched into Super 2 status (meaning early arbitration, meaning free agency a year earlier) just because fans are screaming for him.

* Give him 200 or ABs in AAA to start the season to see if he's truly major league-ready.

* Dunn can be traded after June 15, which ironically enough, is about the period where Bruce can avoid Super 2 status and have the 200-plus ABs.

at 1:03 AM

Mr. Redlegs said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

at 1:05 AM

Mr. Redlegs said...

Robby, Ross brings a lot to the team as a defensive catcher, and he's not the reason the Reds are under .500 the last two years. Most ALL of the pitchers love throwing to him.

BUT . . . this is a critical year for Ross, and the Reds at catcher. See my item under "Spring Training Observations, March 2, 2008" at http://www.myspace.com/goredlegs.

at 2:10 AM

Anonymous said...

Expect Dunn to be traded before deadline for a starting pitcher.
Either San Fransico or Texas Rangers.

at 2:59 AM

scoe44 said...

I honstly dont see Dunner going any where. Remember Wayne said he likes Dunn and wold like to keep him around.

As far as the Paettrson signing goes relax its still what 3-4 weeks till opening day. And I agree with some of you about Bruce yes he is a good player but the man is only 20 years one more season in the minors is not going to hurt him it could actually make him better. Also what if it truns out that his quad is worse than they are letting us know then what.
And I know how some people get they say bring him up let him start but then my mid break and he is hitting .167/.200 with no home runs you all start saying what a bad move it was for the reds to bring him up early.

Heck I have even read on one board where people are already saying we should fire Dusty and the season has not even started yet lol

at 3:08 AM

Anonymous said...

maybe san fran, but TX? doubt it, we already picked them clean of pitchers I would trade for.

at 3:10 AM

Anonymous said...

Dunn will not be traded

at 3:38 AM

scoe44 said...

This is from ESPN on haristons contract

If added to the 40-man roster, Hairston would get a contract paying him $500,000 in the majors and $62,500 in the minors. He could earn $100,000 in performance bonuses: 25,000 each for 75 and 85 games, and $50,000 for 95 games

at 3:45 AM

scoe44 said...

Also I heard that since Fidel Castro retired as president of Cuba he is looking for a minor league deal to pitch somwhere lol. Sorry I had to do it

at 6:50 AM

Anonymous said...

All I know is I am glad I am not trying to earn or keep my job with the Reds...They pay Ryan Freel $3 million and have Bruce, Hopper, Dickerson, etc.. At what point does bringing in new guys become couterproductive

at 7:54 AM

Anonymous said...

Well, if PATTERSON plays instead of Freel, Hopper, and Bruce goes to Louisville, then I hope they do trade Freel. Keppinger is a better Freel, and Hopper is a better 4th outfeilder.

I really wanted to see Bruce this year, even if he did struggle a bit.

As far as WK, at least hes doing something. He hired Dusty for reason, and the way I see it, WK is backing his manager on this. Baker wanted yo sign one of these guys, and obviously made his case to Wayne.

It would be a pretty disfunctional situation if a manager sees a need, offers a solution, and the GM just ignores it.

I dont know if this trade is going to work out, but at least Wayne / Dusty are working together to do something.

-Kevin in Ft Myers

at 7:59 AM

Anonymous said...

Krivsky would have signed Fidel Castro to a minor league deal but Fidel is NOT an outfielder.

Remember, our pressing needs for a 12th and 13th outfielder come first!

Thank God we have Krivsky here. What's what's his name from the Cards doing? Making sure St. Louis finishes 10 games ahead of Cincy this season?

at 8:02 AM

Anonymous said...

"You haver no idea how "all the pitchers feel about Dan Ross" aside from what you read. I am sure all the pitchers would prefer not to have a catcher batting .199"

I belive his name is David Ross not Dan Ross

at 8:06 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

8:02 anon funny post

Julie RN

at 8:08 AM

Anonymous said...

belive
belive
belive

at 8:09 AM

scoe44 said...

Attack the post people not the poster. And stop yelling

at 8:09 AM

Eric C. said...

I agree with what somebody said before. Krivsky doesn't want to risk his career on kids. Dusty doesn't trust Bruce's legs so he talked him into Patterson. The problem is Krivsky is on the bubble and unfortunately that means all his past deals will have to show a profit. Stanton and Majewski will be in the bullpen no matter how bad they are this spring, Bruce will be in AAA, and they'll burn Hopper's last option unless they trade him or Freel. Remember when O'Brian had to start Jimenez even though Freel had an incredible spring. Castilini should do us a favor and extend Krivsky contract or let him go now. Just bring the best 25 north for once.

at 8:12 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

7:59 anon by the way your post was very funny, I almost dumped my morning coffee and bagel on the floor

Too funny..signing Castro . Sorry about calling David Ross Dan Ross..hes that insignificant

at 8:13 AM

Anonymous said...

sorry this is so after the fact, but:

Was at the game yesterday,saw Affeldt. This guy is NOT a starter. Sure his line was OK, but thats not enough to start.

When I found out he was starting I decided to look at him pitch by pitch, bottom line, he throws WAY to many pitches.

Heres the breakdown:

21 balls
12 strikes
2 walks
1 K
Something like 50 pitches in 3 innings (not counting hits or fouled off pitches)

Not good.

I realize he was working on his changeup, but thats ALOT of pitches.

Bailey Volquez can do as much, probably better.

Affeldt belongs in the pen.

Kevin in Ft Myers

PS Dunn looked great, swung and missed only once, hit balls not in his "wheel house". 2rbi's

at 8:20 AM

Eric C. said...

50 pitches in 3 innings? That's almost at Homer Bailey pace. Thanks for the report.

at 8:21 AM

Anonymous said...

I have been reading the posts in here for the last 30 minuytes and I have a question. What does posting on a 1530s blog have to do with a person being someone special or knowledgable in the baseball world? Anyone can post on that blog

at 8:25 AM

Anonymous said...

"Why is everyone worried about Patterson's OBP? He's not a leadoff hitter."

Congratulations Mr. Redlegs, on perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen posted on this blog or any other.

at 8:27 AM

Eric C. said...

I'm new here. Is this supposed to be about baseball or a pissing contest. If it's the later then I can piss 1000 miles 1531 times. Now can we all gather up enough self esteem to just talk baseball.

at 8:31 AM

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Mr. Redlegs, on perhaps the stupidest thing I've ever seen posted on this blog or any other.

at 8:32 AM

Anonymous said...

I am pretending to be a sportswriter on another blog so if you dont believe me to be an expert on this blog come to the other blog and watch me pretend to be a sportswriter

REDLEGGS,MR

at 8:36 AM

Anonymous said...

Hey if you can get these two guys to cheap minor league deals who cares? Best-case scenario they play well. Patterson hits .275 or so, raise his OBP to the .330-.350 range (Freel had a .305 OBP last year and not sure if Hopper can repeat) wiht 10-20 homers. Hairston becomes a valuable part of the team. Worst-case scenario? They're cut loose or man Louisville in case of an injury. What's not to like here?

at 8:37 AM

John Fay said...

Stop with the personal attacks. Now.

If doesn't stop today, we're going back to old way. Where every post has to moderated. I've had it. No one cares what you think about other posters. It's major pain for me to take down posts and I've seen a handful I've got to take down.

at 8:41 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

mikec ..we agree..there is no downside to getting those two. Its still early..let them play and see what happens..good post

at 8:42 AM

Anonymous said...

Jack in Blue Ash- Shut up - Please
Have you ever played the game of baseball? Seriously from the standpoint of a catcher his first and foremost job is to handle pitchers. If he hits, well then lucky you, but if he can't handle pitchers then your screwed so on that note, Ross is a perfectly fine catcher. Second what does living 100 miles away have to do with anything. Can't watch a game on tv where you live? Grow up, shut up and tell your nurse to go away as well

at 8:45 AM

jdeezman said...

With all due respectMr. Fay, I suggest you moderate every post. That way we'll be done with the ridiculous multiple personalities/posters and can get back to baseball.

Kevin in Ft Myers, thanks for the report on Affeldt. I was hoping he would only be a long reliever and let the young guns start.

at 8:48 AM

scoe44 said...

Cant we all agree that we are reds fans. Who cares if we live thousands of miles away or or living overseas or what not stick to talking about baaseball. Who cares if you go to 1 or 40 games a year or even if you just watch or listen to them on the radio.

at 8:51 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

john..just don't let anonymous posters post and the problem will be resolved. It is possible to get IPs, I will email and let you know how we do it.

No winning team carries a catcher batting.200. The Reds are acutely aware of this problem and if I am correct even drafted a catcher last year in the 1st round. Ross is a back up catcher at the very most

at 8:52 AM

scoe44 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

at 8:52 AM

Anonymous said...

I agree we are all Reds fans, far and away

does anyone think that this signing sets the Reds up for a trade or am I thinking to logically for the front office?

at 8:56 AM

Anonymous said...

Also did anyone catch the comments on Homer Bailey yesterday on 1530 homer? Something about Bailey taking a "big league attitude" with reporters. If this is true, which I hope its not, that could be a major red flag

at 9:00 AM

tom dunne said...

"No winning team carries a catcher batting.200."

The St. Louis Cardinals won the World Series in 2006. Their catcher, Yadier Molina, hit .216 with 6 homers in 129 games.

at 9:01 AM

Anonymous said...

I've got to agree with that, the Cards carried him because he is considered one of the best defensive catchers in the league

at 9:01 AM

scoe44 said...

Until he proves himself in the bigs then there is no need for an attitude. I dont care what he did hte minors he aint in the show just yet.

at 9:03 AM

jdeezman said...

ajs05, it could very well mean that they want to trade, but who knows?

SP, catcher, and bench power are needs for this team (especially RH power), but I don't know who we would trade with for any of the above.

Too many OF and not enough SP is NOT a good thing unless you can trade from a strength to address a weakness. Everyone needs starting pitching and I don't see how we'd get it in a trade unless we unload one of our top 4 young guys.

at 9:04 AM

redfuture said...

Granted. There are two sides to playing Bruce now. Delay the FA clock or gain the experience this year that he will need to fill the power vaccuum left by either Griffey or Dunn or both. I say he'll be a much better MLB hitter next year with a year under the belt than he would be a year of AAA under his belt.

at 9:07 AM

Anonymous said...

"Why is everyone worried about Patterson's OBP? He's not a leadoff hitter."

I think OBP is pretty important regardless of where you're at in the lineup.

at 9:13 AM

MarkinMusicity said...

My wife and I arrived back in Nashville at 0730am Central after a couple of games at Ed Smith.
Let me first say thank you to John Fay for the recommendation to see Sunset at Siesta Key. I personally reduced the shellfish population after an evening at the Lobster Pot..then saw Chris Dickerson whack an "OMG!!!" cannon shot on Sunday... he has serious power..
Our pitching was nerve-wracking; but then, I remind myself.. it's SPRING TRAINING... there are twenty year olds running the warning paths DURING the game... the pitchers stay in a max of two innings.. and I am having to look LOTS of names up in the program...
by the way, Jolbert Cabrera is a little taller than Chewbacca... just darker and a better hitter!
Janish impressed in the field AND he can HIT... after two games in Sarasota... I am hopeful for the offense and wondering what brought Paul Bako back ( does he like German food??? )
It is March... first week... we have three weeks plus to go before the games COUNT.. and if our pitchers find their sharpness between now and then, this group can HIT...(for the most part )
There is a Cuban restaurant out past left field that offers a $2 "bacalaito"... a flat fritter with great sole flavor... it's a bargain, and at that price, it probably sells LOTS of beer....

at 9:15 AM

Anonymous said...

I think that everyone is focused on the OBP because of the present need for a leadoff hitter. Its also why I'm semi-confused as to the signing of Patterson, while I don't hate it, it made more sense to go after someone like Lofton who actually IS a leadoff hitter, rather than Patterson who by many is looked at as a leadoff candidate, even though he has no place at the the top of the lineup

at 9:16 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

it is possible to find an exception to any rule as was the case with Molina and the St Louis Cards in that particular year. Yet, if you do your research, most winning teams carry catchers batting in the .260- .280 range

Arroyo made the comment that he liked David Ross and all of a sudden this was embellished into every Reds pitcher wanting Ross to be their catcher because he calls a good game

Anyway relax its preseason.. The sun will be coming out, we set the clocks forward and soon we will be able to go to the ballpark and enjoy our team. Another winter bites the dust

at 9:19 AM

jdeezman said...

Thanks for the info markinmusiccity.

Janish is an interesting story that I think we'll be seeing/hearing more of.

Since you were there, by watching someo of the vets, did anyone look desparate to you... say Stanton, Majik Man, etc...

at 9:24 AM

Anonymous said...

For those anonymous posters wondering if these signings indicate a possible trade--no chance. If another team wanted either one of these turds they would have just signed them to a cheap minor league contract, like the Reds have done, rather than wait for someone else to sign them and give up prospects to get them. Secondly, for all those on Walt Jocketty's Jock strap, take a look at the Cards this year. They're terrible, and without Pujols they would be abysmal. Don't tell me that they're in this shape because Jocketty left last season, they're in this shape because he traded away all their young talent for aging veterans. Wayne Krivsky is making good moves. You'll see.

at 9:27 AM

Anonymous said...

8:13 anon,

Your numbers do not add up at all. Do expand.

Did you check his groundball to flyball ratio? 6:1. That's astounding.

Love,
namoR

at 9:27 AM

Anonymous said...

Bob- I don't think anyone can argue the idea that these new signings are going to be traded anytime soon. I think the thought is more directed in the sense of does this open up the idea for the Reds to trade someone like Freel or Hopper, packaged with a young guy to maybe get another starting pitcher. As noted before the chances of this have to be slim, but its worth talking about

at 9:27 AM

robby said...

Come on. David Ross is valuable because the pitchers love throwing to him, he calls a great game and he has a great arm? So are you telling me the Reds staff ERA would be even worse if someone else was behind the plate? David Ross is a solid back up catcher, nothing more, nothing less.

at 9:27 AM

Anonymous said...

John, when is Maloney scheduled to pitch again? I know his first start was atrocious, but I'll chalk that up to nerves. I know you said he looked like he was throwing pretty hard and he's had decent control in the minors. I would like to see him make the rotation as the 5th starter, and our lone left-hander at that.(No way Affeldt is a starter)

at 9:27 AM

Anonymous said...

Three things to remember - one, Krivsky is joined at the hips to his scouting staff. So you're dealing with a think tank, and not a lone individual. Scouts have done pretty well in the past, so give them the benefit of the doubt.

Second, everyone is looking for pitching. So is Krivsky, and the scouts are looking under every bush. If it was available, they'd grab it.

Third, Patterson and Hairston are calculated risks - minor league deals, low risk, potentially high return. Smart moves, as far as I can see.

at 9:30 AM

Anonymous said...

AJ, I see your point about the trade possibilities. Unfortunately, I don't think we can get anything of value from any of our current outfielders(except for Dunn, and I hope he stays)

at 9:32 AM

John Fay said...

ERA with Ross in the 4.56. 5.15 with Valentin. 7.17 with Moeller. 6.35 with Jorgensen.

Maloney pitches Thursday. I'm about to post my always-informative, lineup and scheduling info.

at 9:33 AM

Anonymous said...

Bob- Maloney's last outing was horrible, granted it was his first but the jump from AA would be a big one, Affeldt has looked pretty solid so far, not sure why you wouldn't want him as the 5th started based on how he has pitched so far this spring.

And yeah I don't see much trade possibility either, but who knows things happen

at 9:36 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

Bob..there has not been a "this year" as of yet.. It is safe to say we don't know how the Cardinals will do. Yet, they always seem to do better than us

I would imagine we will know better at the end of this year how WKs moves have fared. Again..at this point in his tenure..we saw a team go from 80-82 to 72-90 last year, To suggest he is making all the right moves is premature..with all due respect

at 9:39 AM

scoe44 said...

Thanks Mr. Fay. Hopeyou are havign fun down there. Wish i was there. I was there last year for one game since I only live about 5 hours away in georgia

at 9:40 AM

Anonymous said...

one thing you do have to like about WK has been his ability to stockpile some pretty good YOUNG arms, if the future goes as planned we are looking at a great rotation,

I know, I know the future never goes as planned

at 9:40 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

john.. to suggest or imply through statistics that this Reds pitching staff is good with either Ross or Valentine behind the plate is ridiculous. Lets not make David out to be Johnny Bench

Hopefully last year was an anomaly and he will improve this season

at 9:49 AM

Anonymous said...

Jack-You're right, there hasn't been a "this year" yet. Taking that into consideration, I don't think it's hard to predict what the Cards will do when you consider they are without Chris Carpenter this season, which makes Braden Looper their de facto number 1 starter. I shouldn't even have to go through the rest of their rotation or their pitiful bullpen. Everyone complains about are pitching staff but our AAA staff is better than the Cards right now. I predict they will finish behind the Pirates this year.

at 9:50 AM

Anonymous said...

Sorry about the type-o. "Our" pitching staff.

at 10:01 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

Bob..actually it is hard to predict. Yet anytime you make forecasts or predictions it is imperative to use historical analysis and data to make such prediction

As long as they have LaRussa they will be dangerous and he did not stay there to lose.

Aside from Harang and Cordero..our pitching staff is a big "what if"

at 10:02 AM

Anonymous said...

All I'm saying is that I live at the stadium and go to 249 games a year and if anyone claims to be a Reds fan and goes to less than 175 games a year, well, they're just not real Reds fans. Sorry it had to be said. SOOOOO, you can take MY word as gospel...

What's with all the vitriol towards this Mr. Redlegs fella? Frankly, he makes some pretty valid points in his posts. But obviously I can't take him seriously b/c of the whole 175 games attended rule I just invoked.

at 10:05 AM

redfuture said...

The odd thing was that last year Arroyo was the only pitcher of note who actually had a better (much better) ERA with Valentin than Ross. Remember Bronson kind of established Ross as the preferred catcher even while LaRue was here. Poor Belisle who usually was stuck with Valentin was far, far, better with Ross behind the plate.

at 10:22 AM

robby said...

John you know that lots of things impact ERA when each catcher is behind the plate, including who the catcher gets to catch. How often did Valentin catch Harang or Arroyo? Not to beat a dead horse but David Ross is not good enough defensivley to justify his anemic bat being in the line-up every day. The pitchers prefer throwing to Ross. That's faint praise when the other options are those you've listed. I never said Ross was not the Reds best catcher. My point is he is a just one hole on a team with many holes. If he made consistent contact and batted .225 maybe his lack of hitting could be tolerated. But hs is just another one of the Reds hitters who swing hard and hope for contact. The Reds, if they are ever going to contend, have to rid themselves of some of the players who too often fail to make contact. Enough said, he is the starting catcher and one of the reasons it will likely be another losing season.

at 10:50 AM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

Hopefully Ross will get his swing back and become more productive offensively. I don't think that it was just his lack of hitting ..it was the fact that he looked so terrible at the plate the majority of the time

Robby is correct..his lack of contact is rather disconcerting

at 11:04 AM

jdeezman said...

Ross is obviously the best defensive catcher we had last year, but as others have stated... this staff would've stunk anyway.

Johnny Bench himself couldn't make this a good staff.

That IS one reason to like Krivsky, even for the naysayers, we are getting a lot of good young arms in the system to help us in the future.

at 12:27 PM

Anonymous said...

For 2008, a season where the Reds are a long shot to win anything, PLAY BRUCE FROM DAY 1.

I like Patterson as a pinch runner only. He's a good guy to have as the 6th OF, stating in Louisville and rady to come up if there is an injury.

I liked Hairston and though his talent was wasted by the Orioles and Cubs. Now, he's a utility infielder at best and we don;t need 1. Put him in Louisville too.

at 12:41 PM

Steven Ross said...

I agree that Griffey will be gone next year but not Dunn. Castellini loves the big guy and besides, this will be his contract season so I expect a monster year.

Bruce and Votto will supply enough pop next year so I'm not worried about losing Griffey's bat. Look, the signing of Patterson confirms a trade is brewing. Stay tuned.

at 12:42 PM

reaganspad said...

Holy Bob Boone. How soon we forget our catching. Before Molina, the cards had Matheny, who was the same guy: Great catcher, handles the staff, would hit about once every 4 years.

Brad Ausmus is in great demand, not for his bat. The funny posts about catching in this blog have been to sign Piazza as our 3rd catcher, but that would be a move to make Javy look like Johnny Bench.

Face it, people in Cincy are spoiled. Eddie Taubensee will never be confused with David Ross, and vice-versa

at 1:31 PM

Anonymous said...

BRAD AUSMUS HAS OVER A 250 LIFTEIME AVERAGE REGINSPAD IF ROSS DID NOT BAT TWO HUINDRED AND NEVER MAKE CONTACT WITH THE BALL AND LOOK SO BAD AT THE PLATE MAYBE YOU WOULD NOT HEAR ABOUT HIM

at 1:36 PM

robby said...

Ross is not in the same league as Molina, Matheny or Ausmus. To say he is, well, is silly. He is not as good defensively and his propensity to swing and miss is not acceptable. Goodness, I can't believe anyone would possibly argue that having Ross as the starting catcher is a positive.

at 4:00 PM

reaganspad said...

Wow anon 1:31. You gonna defend Ausmus the offensive?
OK, lets compare, remembering that GABP and HOMErun field are the same type park.

Ausmus has had 17 HRs TOTAL in his last 5 seasons (he has NEVER had double digit HR's). Averages of 235, 230, 258, 248 and 229 in last 5 years. He has not had 50 RBIS in any of those seasons. Go ahead and defend his declining 255 carreer average. Nice defender though.

Ross had 22 HRs and 52 RBI's in 2006, when he hit 255.

And Robby, I did not say Ross was as good as Matheny. I said that catchers LIKE MATHENY are kept for their defense, not offense

at 4:11 PM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

I would agree robby..Ross wont be around next year

You can provide statistics, compare ballparks etc..but fact reamains Ross had a terrible year last year and if he repeats such this year..I doubt he will be on a major league team next year

at 5:11 PM

reaganspad said...

Yes Jack, we have SO MUCH catching that "Ross won't be back next year"

David Ross will be with the team for the next few years easily. The 4 top guys we have in the top 100are not catchers.

I look for Dusty to have a positive approach with Ross's hitting approach, and look for him in the 240-250 range, 60 RBI's.

regardless of what you say about statistics, if the pitchers are almost 1 run better BECAUSE he is behind the plate, that is better.

Better is Better, unless you are a Cub

at 5:24 PM

grant owens said...

I'm with Robby on this one. Ross is a clear liability. Go grab an extra vet catcher, not CF. Ross hit .139 with RISP last year (.203 overall).... that is inexcusable. He was a enormous rally killer last year. He has no situational hitting abilities and it really hurt us. Sure, he would periodically walk into a major league mistake pitch and yank it just fair into the bleachers. So does Arroyo. Since 2006 when pitchers got his scouting report, Ross has been ineffective. I'm sure we can replace his "works well with the pitchers" ability.

These two signings are simply Dusty fulfilling favors to ex-players.

at 9:47 PM

reaganspad said...

Grant, Jack, Robby and Anon:
I have a question for you all. What catcher have we missed on that is available?
I have posted that we miss Jason LaRue, he of the 194 average did improve our catching (with he and Ross). Paul Bako is, well Paul Bako, the same animal we are talking about...all catch, no hit.

We agree that I rate Ross higher than you all. Who would you recommend the Reds have solicited for catcher?

at 10:21 PM

Jack in Blue Ash said...

reagan..my neighbor has a son that catches for the Deer Park Garage Little League.. How about him?

reagan please dude..quit defending and making excuses for terrible performance and mediocrity

as always with respect

at 12:06 AM

robby said...

My point in all of this is not to argue that the Reds have better catching options available on the roster or in the minors. David Ross is the best catcher on the Reds roster. My point is that because David Ross is the best the Reds have to offer,catching is just one of the many glaring weaknesses on the team. David Ross is not good enough defensively to justify his horrendous offensive numbers. The Reds need to address the problem. Plain and simple. If David Ross is the starting catcher 4 years from now the Reds will be in double digits in consecutive losing seasons.

I really am going to let it go.....

at 11:47 AM

Anonymous said...

Can you hear the ticking? It's the clock running out on Wayne Krivsky. The Reds still have not picked a direction for this team. One minute it sounds like we're going young and going to build something great with these young kids. The next we are bringing in mediocre veterans who can't find a job so they end up in Cincy. Baker likes veterans and will keep the young guys down as long as he can. The 'it's competition' comment is a way to say 'they will get their token opportunity then go to Louisville.' The Reds owner says he wants to win - then I still say why didn't we get a solid proven starter instead of trading Hamilton for someone who could be good, and stocking up on outfielders once again. Is Bowden back running things? I think the Reds are pretenders once again - more talk than anything.

at 11:58 AM

Anonymous said...

My problem with the Reds covers a couple of things. First, starting pitching has been a need for several years and we've done little if nothing about it. #2, the Reds have too many lefties in the lineup. Their batting average vs. southpaws was horrible so we've added a lefty and retained a second lefty at 1B. I do like the competition for the bullpen. However, if they don't make a trade the Reds probably won't cut Freel or Stanton or any other over paid player to make room for the young guys. And to give Affledt and Fogg contracts I am not so sure it was very smart. I don't think either one will do any better than the young ones. The Reds are either working on a trade or two or they may have a long waiver list.

at 12:18 PM

reaganspad said...

Well none of you guys came up with a Ross alternative, unless Jack, your neighbor's son is Devin Mesoraco.

Again, the curse of being a Reds fan is that we had Johnny Bench. That is a very high standard. Who has been our best catcher since JB?

Bo Diaz?

"THEY" say that Mesoraco is a 5 tool kid. I hope he is better than Sardina

at 1:14 PM

Anonymous said...

some of you need to calm down. OMG!!! WE SIGNED COREY PATTERSON TO A MINOR LEAGUE CONTRACT! NOW JAY BRUCE WILL NEVER PLAY FOR THE REDS!! do you really think that Dusty wont play the BEST player for the job? if bruce earns the centerfield spot then its his... if not... we have great depth and competition. i dont understand what the problem is.

Previous Posts

Monday, March 3, 2008

My take on the Patterson signing

117 Comments: